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"Any success without re-loading?"

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Conferences Wizardry(r) 1-7 Conferences Wiz 7 - CoDS and Gold (Protected)
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kwahraps (2 posts) Click to EMail kwahraps Click to send private message to kwahraps Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-04-04, 07:18 AM (Pacific)
"Any success without re-loading?"
I've read about the solo adventures, and am tinkering with 2 and 4 player parties myself, but has anyone had any success with building a party that never had to save/reload for particular situations.

I realize that some fixed battles can be tough, and there are advantages to saving right before a level up, to get that crucial requirement for a new profession, but has there ever been a party that didn't have to rely on reloading???

Just curious.

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mad god (4 posts) Click to EMail mad%20god Click to send private message to mad%20god Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-11-04, 05:25 AM (Pacific)
1. "RE: Any success without re-loading?"
If talking about reloadings at all, then I say: "No". I believe it is impossible to win the game without single reloading (save-turn_PC_off-load sequences does not count as reloadings.

There just so many deadly fights....

If talking about avoiding reloads for advantages (gain specific treasure from the random chest, gain good level-up, gain good fight, etc) and reload ONLY when your party dead or even half-dead, I think that it is very possible, and even more, it is very interesting! And I also believe that there are some people that accomplished this task (I admit - I'm not one of them ).

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Neovalis (0 posts) Click to EMail Neovalis Click to send private message to Neovalis Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-12-04, 09:35 PM (Pacific)
2. "RE: Any success without re-loading?"
I've never bothered to try an Ironman game w/ Wiz 7, but I'm sure it's possible. It would probably require a ton of class changing early so everyone would have maxed out ninjutsu and kirijutsu, and knowledge of most spells. Even w/ a party of "renaissance men," I wouldn't discount the possibility of an unfairly difficult random encounter (see my post in the Bane forum).
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mad god (4 posts) Click to EMail mad%20god Click to send private message to mad%20god Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-13-04, 00:52 AM (Pacific)
3. "How that can be possible?"
Imagine following: You had a battle, where you won, but your characters need rest. You rest and, bah, another encounter, you had not rest well and just wiped out.

How this can be possible?

W8 Iron Man is quite possible when you know enemies and can avoid them "easily" when spotting them. In W7 it is impossible. This is my strong believe.

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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-13-04, 07:34 PM (Pacific)
4. "Don't get in fights unless you are prepared"
Don't end the fight, just defend, when you are down to one opponent. Carry lots of potions and mana regen items. It is probably possible, but VERY difficult. There is always resurrection if at least one party member can get away.

Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

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Neovalis (0 posts) Click to EMail Neovalis Click to send private message to Neovalis Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-14-04, 11:48 AM (Pacific)
5. "RE: How that can be possible?"
In an Iron Man game, no one should do this. You should never take on a dangerous area until you are well ready for the toughest fights it can offer or rest unless you are positive that you can handle the toughest potential ambushers.

Regain stamina by hiding everyone and resting every round. If you class changed a lot early like I said you should, everyone would be able to heal wounds, cure poison, etc.

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mad god (4 posts) Click to EMail mad%20god Click to send private message to mad%20god Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-16-04, 00:03 AM (Pacific)
6. "RE: How that can be possible?"
2 Llevram & Neovalis: So, what are you waiting for, then? Go for the Iron Man! Show us the first class!

Seriously: I never heard that anyone done this. I still believe it is impossible. Let's rephrase it: I believe it is has the chance of success just the same as a monkey with keyboard will produce the "War and Peace" of Tolstoy by pushing random keys...

Pardon my English.

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rabidamoeba (4 posts) Click to EMail rabidamoeba Click to send private message to rabidamoeba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-16-04, 09:19 AM (Pacific)
7. "RE: How that can be possible?"
Tell em' Steve-Da... um... Mad God!
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Neovalis (0 posts) Click to EMail Neovalis Click to send private message to Neovalis Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-16-04, 11:28 PM (Pacific)
8. "RE: How that can be possible?"
Theoretically, by using the black wafer over and over early in the game, a full party could class change dozens of times and:

1) Learn every spell.
2) Learn every skill, not including personal skills.
3) Have 100 in every skill.
4) Gain an unlimited amount of hit and spell points by changing classes long after they've accomplished 1, 2, and 3.

Now, objectively tell me how Wiz 7 would be impossible to beat w/o saving and loading.

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rabidamoeba (4 posts) Click to EMail rabidamoeba Click to send private message to rabidamoeba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-17-04, 08:22 AM (Pacific)
9. "RE: How that can be possible?"
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-04 AT 08:22 AM (Pacific)

There is of course that long and extremely time consuming way to do it. Or you could save yourself 1-2 months of sitting in front of the computer fighting the same silly battle over and over again and just edit your charcters. Heck even give them super armor and super weapons and just see how easy it would be to go through the game in that manner. It would probably still be tricky even when you have super-duper-mega-uber characters. But, I'm sure that in some way shape or form the game can be beaten without reloading after ever mistake or lucky enemy attack.

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Neovalis (0 posts) Click to EMail Neovalis Click to send private message to Neovalis Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-17-04, 10:57 AM (Pacific)
11. "RE: How that can be possible?"
Sure, it's tedious and boring, but it won't nearly take two months... in Bane I maxed my characters out in two days in the 2nd castle basement. Besides, when did I advocate playing the game like this? I just wanted to say it's possible.

I also find it strange that there is so much discussion of strategy on this forum, and yet the general consensus is that luck is absolutely required.

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Scary (16 posts) Click to EMail Scary Click to send private message to Scary Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-17-04, 04:43 PM (Pacific)
13. "It's one or the other?"
>I also find it strange that
>there is so much discussion
>of strategy on this forum,
>and yet the general consensus
>is that luck is absolutely
>required.


You write that almost as if a game is either pure strategy (like chess) or pure luck (like a coin toss). Most games are not so pure. In Wizardry, as in so many other games, strategy has a great deal of influence on likely outcomes, yet good luck can still save someone who has adopted a poor strategy (well, up to a point; that luck will run out); and bad luck can defeat you even if you're following a very sound strategy. IMHO, much of the excitement of the game would be lost if this were not so.

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kwahraps (2 posts) Click to EMail kwahraps Click to send private message to kwahraps Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-17-04, 10:53 AM (Pacific)
10. "RE: How that can be possible?"
Even if you're enemies can't hit you, what if they manage to bewilder or confuse you, and your own party members start killing each other with criticals.

Not to mention the various monsters that can deliver a critical of their own.

There are even some chests, that with a 100 skullduggery are tricky to open and can wipe out a party.

I was thinking more like hardcore Diablo II, and if it could be done here. I think it could, but it would be too time consuming building up your levels to where you are at least 10 levels ahead of your next area of attack.

Also, most re-loads are probably involved with :

A)death (nobody wants to resurrect and lose vitality)
B)level stat gain (in order to change classes)
C)treasure chest rewards (to get that Cat O' Nine Tails)

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Dragon2k (806 posts) Click to EMail Dragon2k Click to send private message to Dragon2k Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-17-04, 02:57 PM (Pacific)
12. "RE: How that can be possible?"
or 4) temple of deadly coffers in the Dane Tower (Dionyceus which is quite tough to spell right) which your theif is useless against.
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mad god (4 posts) Click to EMail mad%20god Click to send private message to mad%20god Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-18-04, 00:34 AM (Pacific)
14. "RE: How that can be possible?"
Very, very simple!
You can't have more than 999 HP and MP. So it is not unlimited amount.
Also even with those stats and high level your party can be easyly wiped out by horragoth, gorrors or just tough encounters.

Assume you won the battly fairly easy, you are proud. You make forward step and, op-pa, you are faces some nasty fellows with nasty attacks, spells, etc. Assume you won that battle too. You are little worried now. You party battered, you have no MP left. You have two choices: rest (very, very, very,.... , very long time with such stats you just gained or run to the neares fountain. In both cases you have very high chance to run on your last encounter in your Iron Man game.

You want to tell me that there are alot of potions and such. I tell you the next: I tried to use them. 1. It is very long process to stack your bagpacks with potions bying by 1 heavy heal potion ONCE per encounter with an NPC(potions also have weight) 2. Let's assume that you survived the tedious shopping . But potions are very quickly end up and you'll eventualy will have not any (I tried). 3. Many enemies deal more damage than any potion could cover.

Also there are criticals (rabidamoeba already wrote about) that can ruin your party very quickly.

Also there is a fact that you can NEVER have a best (or even very good) weapon for your characters to fight effectively because you can't load on the good chest any more.

As I said it IS possible, BUT the possibility is so small that I render it impossible. Beat the game such way and I will change my opinion (I wander how one can prove that). For now you just doing simple ramblings... just like me

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Neovalis (0 posts) Click to EMail Neovalis Click to send private message to Neovalis Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-18-04, 08:20 AM (Pacific)
15. "RE: How that can be possible?"
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-04 AT 08:23 AM (Pacific)

If you made it to the Gorrors in a Wiz 7 Iron Man game, ask yourself this: would you fight them, or just beat the game?

The party I mentioned earlier (w/ hundreds of spell points and every spell for every character) would be hard pressed to run out of spell points for healing. But after two battles?? Regardless of how difficult two battles could be, you're just reaching. You seem to be theorizing on the average party, not the one I mentioned.

Potions are a waste of time.

W/ maxed ninjutsu and high levels, criticals aren't a big threat. Should someone get hit by a critical, resurrect. Please don't fight the Fiend of 9 Worlds in an Iron Man game, unless you really want to.

The weapons you get without reloading will get you through the game, if not the Gorrors.

Again, you haven't objectively shown how my theoretical party could fail to beat an Iron Man game. All of your points, except the one about good weapons, seem addressed to a different party.

Edit: What monster or monster group could easily wipe out a party w/ maxed hit and spell points and high levels? Discounting, of course, optional ones.

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rabidamoeba (4 posts) Click to EMail rabidamoeba Click to send private message to rabidamoeba Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-18-04, 09:13 AM (Pacific)
16. "RE: How that can be possible?"
I'm only speaking from experience and it's been so long since I last played a full game of CODS. But I do seem to remember being hit by way too many Asphixiation at several points and constantly having my arse handed to me with half of my party killed or worse.

And again even coming back to Neovalis' Iron-Man Party. I realize that you are talking about a game of maxing out your characters and taking advantage of the system that already exists in the game. By leveling up characters, changing classes and getting absolutely everything you can for your party. Thus the reason I suggested if one were going to do this why not take it a step further and in the process save yourself some time.

I believe if one were going to play the game using your method they might very well be able to beat the game without reloading. But if we were to consider this an Iron-Man game ALA Wiz 8 and play a CODS game without abusing, what I myself consider a loophole, and play the game as one would play a Wiz 8 game. I do not think that an Iron-Man game would be possible without the greatest of luck.

Again to each their own. But thats my $0.02

P.S. - This brings up another question: Would one have to play an Iron-Man game in Wiz 7 on Easy/Normal/Hard? And I believe that would bring new meaning to the word "HARD"

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Neovalis (0 posts) Click to EMail Neovalis Click to send private message to Neovalis Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-18-04, 04:48 PM (Pacific)
17. "RE: How that can be possible?"
>I believe if one were going
>to play the game using
>your method they might very
>well be able to beat
>the game without reloading. But
>if we were to consider
>this an Iron-Man game ALA
>Wiz 8 and play a
>CODS game without abusing, what
>I myself consider a loophole,
>and play the game as
>one would play a Wiz
>8 game. I do not
>think that an Iron-Man game
>would be possible without the
>greatest of luck.

I totally agree. A "normal" game w/o much class changing (if any) is dependent on luck.

>Again to each their own. But
>thats my $0.02

I would never play a Wiz 7 Iron Man game, and I probably won't play it anymore period because a game w/o much class changing will involve a lot of loading, while a game w/ tons of class changing is mind-numbingly boring.

I've beaten Wiz I, II, III, and V w/o loading because there is no load option (except for V's quick load feature, which is for cowards). Those games were challenging but beautifully balanced; I can't say the same for Wiz VII. I just wanted to argue that an Iron Man game in 7 could be done, just for the heck of it.

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Time Lord (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-26-04, 03:14 PM (Pacific)
18. "RE: How that can be possible?"
>Very, very simple!
>You can't have more than 999
>HP and MP. So it
>is not unlimited amount.
>Also even with those stats and
>high level your party can
>be easyly wiped out by
>horragoth, gorrors or just tough
>encounters.

I think in Wizardry Gold HP can go over 999 but MP can't? But my solo level 90 character still doesn't have much over 999, so it's a moot point.

<stuff snipped>

>Also there are criticals (rabidamoeba already
>wrote about) that can ruin
>your party very quickly.

Here is something I noticed: when you are high enough level, you can critical almost anything, gorrors and Dark Savant included! The flip side of this is also true; when you are that high level, you don't get criticaled back!

>Also there is a fact that
>you can NEVER have a
>best (or even very good)
>weapon for your characters to
>fight effectively because you can't
>load on the good chest
>any more.

You could still have guaranteed: light sword, cane of corpus, and coil of serpent or sword of 4 winds. (I recommend amulet of healing + coil personally.) Of course cane is risky to get (ratkin criticals!) and light sword is very late game... Bushido blade can also be bought I think? Overall though, the selection is admittedly limited.

>As I said it IS possible,
>BUT the possibility is so
>small that I render it
>impossible. Beat the game such
>way and I will change
>my opinion (I wander how
>one can prove that). For
>now you just doing simple
>ramblings... just like me

I think it MIGHT be possible (and even doable) under the following conditions:

-set the game to easy (to limit insane fights, especially at the start when you are weak - later on, mostly for convenience)
-do lots of levelling - make sure your party has plenty of firepower via spells. This is mostly a challenge because you can't re-roll bad level-ups, so this could be VERY tedious.
-stay in low-level areas for a long time (VERY TEDIOUS - new city troopers anyone?) until you are confident you are not at risk
-rest a LOT - so you don't get caught in an "at risk" state - really this is actually easy (random encounters are reasonably rare; if you stay in "safe" areas for your level, and rest after each damaging fight, it shouldn't be too hard - it is pretty rare for a party to be near-death and out of mana from a single combat unless they are on hard difficulty level or too low level for the area) If have have a unlucky event, pull out those potions, scrolls, and amulets, but don't rely on them.

the main problems would be:
-start of the game - before you do the serious levelling, you are very vulnerable!
-no rerolls on levelling - this could be a deal-breaker if you get bad rolls. But there is a workaround! I've yet to see anyone mention this, but faeries can switch between theif and bard with NO stat requirements! This means they can switch back and forth infinite times! (good luck ever getting an elite class though!) Still, one character (or more if you can handle having no good weapons) with maximum points in all theif/bard/starting class skills early on + all bard spells can really make a difference.
-dane tower chests - i'm not sure if even high level protects you from instant death. So this could be a problem.

The interesting thing is that most things that pose a risk to a party actually get LESS risky with a single, high-level character. My normal parties end the game around level 30 with a struggle; my solo level 90+ faerie ninja is easily walking through EVERYTHING around him without using magic at all. The biggest problem is living long enough for him to reach those levels!

My ideal suggestion: start with a party, them getting the faerie to the point where he is very powerful. Then slowly kill off party members (for less experience distribution) until the faerie is strong enough to survive on his own. Then spend a few days doing nothing but levelling. (preferablly in new city, on hard mode, using multiple nuclear blast spells, then going to the abbey for fresh spell points after each battle to guarantee that you are always at full strength) The biggest challenge is not having access to all spell classes with the solo character. You can start with an elite class (add one spell school), and maybe even get most spells from that school (if you are willing to wait before doing the theif <-> bard powerleveling of skills), but chances are after you become a theif you may never be able to rejoin an elite class again. (If you are patient, you can buy ankhs in sky city, but that means a) you go back to level 1 AGAIN, this time without a party, and b) that will take a while - for the majority of the game, you effectively have only two spell classes at best. You can of course detour to a priest or alchemist class along the way, but it can take a LONG time to switch back to theif or bard without reloading at level ups.

This is based partly on practise (solo faerie ninja - not totally legit, I edited in a cane of corpus & rod of sprites for him, which I eventually also got by legit means, and I reloaded from saves lots!) and partly on theory. I may try it one day, though I'm not sure if I have the patience to play without the extra spell schools!

btw: MAD GOD, YOU ROCK! Your viewer got me playing Wizardry Gold again where I had once quit for good, to where I beat it for the first time ever! Also, this message board has been invaluable, this is where I got the idea that soloing is better, not worse, than party play!

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