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"Concerns about the usefulness of offensive magic late in the game."

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Decado (Guest) (69 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-04-01, 10:38 PM (Pacific)
"Concerns about the usefulness of offensive magic late in the game."
This is part of a "magic review" someone else wrote (yes, he finished the game). He really liked it, and if what he says is true, I think he has some very valid points. Hope W8 will not end up being yet another CRPG buggered up by bad end-game balancing. Just want to hear what you guys think.

"Finally, we arrive at the end game. This is where the Mage has limited usefulness, and offensive magic is near useless. Most monsters have resistances around eighty or one hundred and more, so most offensive magic usually does pitiful damage for the spell points spent, or is totally negated. Casting a level seven Blizzard for eighty-four spell points and doing around forty or so damage against six or eight enemies may seem great, but since you can only cast that spell at that power level maybe two or three times, and that more than likely there's more monsters around the corner, it won't help too much. And, to add to that, most monsters at this time have around three hundred or more hit points, and a forty hit point chunk isn't going to do much, as they're just as dangerous at full health as at near death. Also, most monsters also start off combat by casting Magic Screen, Soul Shield or Element Shield, making your spells do even less damage or absolutely nothing. Even casting a level seven Banish at a cost of seventy spell points against demons do zero damage. A Mage has very few choices left at this point: basically just cast Element Shield and attack with an extended weapon. Though, there are a couple of high levels spells that do stand out at the end game, Summon Elemental and sometimes Asphyxiation. A level seven Summon Elemental calls an Elemental Lord, capable of taking a lot of damage as well as smacking monsters around with one hundred plus damage attacks when they do connect. Asphyxiation is a wild card, sometimes it clears the room, and other times it does nothing. Though, despite its spell point cost, when you run into a group of twenty or so monsters, and leave only five or six after a level seven casting, you'll appreciate it nevertheless. But, this all balances out in the end. Monsters can cast Magic Screen, Soul Shield and Element Shield, but so can you. In fact, you'll probably have three or four party enchantments in effect before you go into battle, including Magic Screen. A casting of Soul Shield and Element Shield, your party will be pretty damn near immune to anything cast against them, except for a little bit of damage that makes it through their resistances. So magic goes both ways at the end game, you either do something or nothing to monsters, and they do something or nothing to you.

Again, this makes the game even more melee focused, and as I said above, I don't mind it at all. Now, I'm not saying that mages are bad (or for that matter, other spell casting professions), but they are very limited in their choices at the beginning and at the end. They only have two enchantments that are unique to them, Enchanted Blade and Missile Shield (very nice to have), whereas Alchemist's and Psionic's have more party enchantments or other helpful spells (such as Heal Wounds, Cure Lesser Cond., Sane Mind, etc.). Mages also have Freeze Flesh and Freeze All, which is unique to them, and are right alongside Psionic's with status afflicting spells. Which make Bishops all the more deadly if developed correctly, since they can cast from all four spell books."

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Kasia (81 posts) Click to EMail Kasia Click to send private message to Kasia Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-05-01, 04:32 AM (Pacific)
1. "RE: Possible solution :-)"
Well, it may seem almost too obvious, but wouldn't your spellcasters carry a few bottles of magic nectar for when the going gets tough? Regain some spellpoints, and then you can recast the spells that you know (or hope) will work...
Best, Kasia
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Power Casting (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-05-01, 06:38 AM (Pacific)
2. "RE: Possible solution :-)"
An elite powercasting skill becomes available when
a character reaches 100 INT. Perhaps this would help
permeate the monsters' magic shield?!
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Tiburon (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-05-01, 02:04 PM (Pacific)
3. "RE: Possible solution :-)"
Even if the monsters HAD no defenses, the spells just don't do enough damage.
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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-05-01, 07:33 PM (Pacific)
4. "That has not been my experience"
When you get to the end game even if the spells are only doing 0-20 points damage, that is 0-20 to all monsters they hit, as opposed to fighters whacking on one monster at a time.

If you get enough of those "ineffective" spells to add up, the fighters can start dispatching the foes w/o have to whittle off all 300 or so hit points.

Not to mention the defensive, healing and buff spells.

www.softwarespecialties.com Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

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Decado (Guest) (69 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-05-01, 10:29 PM (Pacific)
5. "RE: That has not been my experience"
Doing 2-15 HPs of damage to all enemies early(ish) in the game doesn't make that great a difference. I can't see how it would be significant late game.
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Tiburon (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-06-01, 07:37 AM (Pacific)
6. "RE: That has not been my experience"
I agree that 20 points to a dozen critters means 240 points of total damage, and that IS worth something. But not enough, unless you can combine together quite a few of them. By comparison, look at the net effect of the debilitating spells. Paralyze? They're mostly defenseless. Damage per swing goes up by 50%, I'd say (counting both improved hit percentages and improved damage per hit), and one would expect that critical hits would become more frequent. Sleep? No monster attacks. Blinding and fear let you stage the fight...6 moderately tough monsters might rip you up pretty good, but negate 4 of em, and you can usually quickly dispatch the others. When the other 4 come back, they'll usually be beaten down some.

It's also true, though, that this has been a fairly common feature of all the Wizardrys. One of the great advantages of bards has been the free repeatability available, via instrument-based magic. But, given the frequency in the more advanced fights of spellcasters popping Element Shield and Soul Shield, even this approach has limited effectiveness.

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Djaran (Guest) (30 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-07-01, 09:36 PM (Pacific)
7. "RE: That has not been my experience"
In the older Wizardries, it has been my experience that Terror is of very limited usefulness (because monsters that run away don't come back and don't count for experience). Also, monsters in the older wizardries in general had fewer HPs. The Dark Savant himself had something like 212 HPs in Wiz 7. Rebecca had less than 100 in Bane of the Cosmic Forge. Therefore, your piddly 40 HPs to everything actually counted for something. In Wiz8? No such thing. Brigands on the road have something like 150 HPs. Their equivalents in Crusaders (say Rattkin Ronin) had more like half those HPs.
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IlleglWpns (Guest) (26 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-07-01, 10:59 PM (Pacific)
8. "Yeah I really don't like the HP inflation"
It makes no sense that a lowly Rapax patrolman would have 350 hps.

However I suppose it's necessary to prevent spell casters from simply blowing everything away at range.

I wish there was a better solution though.

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Djaran (Guest) (30 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-08-01, 00:37 AM (Pacific)
9. "RE: That has not been my experience"
Actually another thing that occured to me is that certain spells do less damage in Wiz8 than they used to in Wiz6 and 7.

One example is lifesteal. Damage for this spell has gone way down. It now does 4-16 PPL, where it used to do 4-16 PPL^2.

Prismic ray no longer does those 300+ damage effects and I have yet to see a monster "wither and die" from prismic ray, or even go insane. Just once I'd like to see a monster get turned to Stone too.

Another thing is that the Cloud Spells seem to all suck now. I've cast L4 Acid Bombs on monsters with 35% Earth resistance and damaged the whole lot for an average of 6 damage for 4 rounda. What's up with that? I preferred the old way of how clouds work (full damage for two rounds, then taper off in the remaining rounds). Firestorm used to be useful (sort of like a self-maintaining fireball spell).

Another big difference is the reduction in damage types. Resistances are now divided into schools. This means that a monster's resistance to Dehydration would be the same as resistance to Tsunami. Which is dumb. And there is no distinction between Light Spells and Fire Spells like there was in Wiz 7 (not sure about 6).

There are also fewer spells in Wiz 8 than in Wiz 7 (I want my Deadly Poison back). Less spells, less options. And partitioning the elemental resist shields a la Wiz 6/7 (remember Fire Shield, Ice Shield, Air Pocket and their ilk?) made spell-casting a lot more viable in this game for both sides.

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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-08-01, 06:53 AM (Pacific)
10. "I think damage is more realistic"
(which would be a whole separate thread, unto itself .... how much realism should go into fanatasy games )

Take a look at Dracon Breath. Within a given battle, the first time you use it, you get say 10-15 points of damage doled out. Next time it drops to 8-12, then 4-8, then 1-4, ....

I kind of liked this, whether it is because of the stamina drain, the dracon must recharge his supply, or (my favorite reasoning) that it is just like acid ... if someone thoughs acid on you it is gonna burn, then next time it will sting, the next time it will be irritating, .... pretty soon you could take a bath in it

www.softwarespecialties.com Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

(It was funny the first 500 times )

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