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"FRPG vs Sci/Fi/Fantasty books/novels (long and rambling)"

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admin (124 posts) Click to EMail admin Click to send private message to admin Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-06-00, 11:12 AM (Pacific)
"FRPG vs Sci/Fi/Fantasty books/novels (long and rambling)"
This is a question that I have long pondered over: What are the real differences between a great FRPG (i.e. Wiz1, Ultima II, Wiz 7, ...others) and a great Fantasy book (i.e. David Eddings, Weis & Hickman, Terry Brooks, Piers Anthony, ... many others)?

I always read the books first, then if I reread them, it is usually with the thought "how could you turn this into a game?" in mind.

To me, a lot of the elements are sometimes the same: an overall plot, characters that you associate with and that develop over the course of the game/book and an ending (or lead in to the next book/game.

To me the main difference is one follows a script, the other (to some extent) you control the direction things go within the parameters of the script. The other main difference is the travel. Books can "fast forward" through a long desert trek or monotonous ocean voyage, games usually don't (e.g. the Sea of Sorrows )

I bring up this topic, because I think many of us would love to write a FRPG (or dream of it anyway) and for me, most of the inspiration I have, comes from fantasy books. I wonder where other people derive their inspiration (besides the obvious answer, other computer games.

It seems a lot of writers have a system, like a template, framework or mold (for lack of a better explanation) that a lot of their work comes from. Terry Brooks' Shannara series (both of them) and David Eddings' Belgariad and Mallorean series are two examples of this. I really enjoyed both authors works, but after the reading the second series, I felt a real sense of déjà vu.

Terry Brooks, for example, seems to have this framework, where a human, an elf and a dwarf all meet on a joint quest. They encounter a druid who reluctantly helps them. They wrestle with internal turmoil. They enlist the help of others and eventually beat down the evil coming from the North. This is greatly simplified, but I don't think anyone that has read his stuff, could say that doesn't describe either series. The same kind of thing for Eddings, grab one hero/champion from each kingdom, get them together, quest all over the world, defeat the bad guys.

Yet, both authors really keep the whole thing interesting, with the twists and turns and I really enjoyed reading (and re-reading their works). In contrast, someone like Piers Anthony, seems to have no such "framework". I have read many of his series and can draw no such easy parallels between any of them.

So, do I have a point? I was just wondering that myself I guess not much of one, just a lot of rambling … anything to keep me from finishing my taxes

Ok, one last question: how important is it, if you were making a game, to "travel". By this, I mean the "fast forward" kind of stuff a book can do (i.e. "The six week journey across the great waters was boring and uneventful"). Sure, the first time across the Sea of Sorrows you need to see every square, but after that, wouldn't you rather just "fast forward"? Sure, you should be stopped if you encounter a monster or NPC, or if something has changed (i.e. a new building or a new fork in the road). The same could hold true for overland travel. Wiz 7 takes care of this in some ways with a few teleporters, but I really liked this aspect of Star Trails. They gave you an overview map and you selected your next destination. Whenever there was an encounter, you broke out of the "fast forward" and resolved the encounter. Once you were in a city, cave, swamp, … you were in first person mode again.

I don't think "fast forward" should be the only way, but as an option I sure think it is the way to go.

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elrond (83 posts) Click to EMail elrond Click to send private message to elrond Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-06-00, 01:07 PM (Pacific)
1. "RE: FRPG vs Sci/Fi/Fantasty books/novels (long and rambling)"
You definitely make some good, and long points, so I'm just gonna respond to the ones I know something about I guess now I get to ramble

I definitely agree with your statement regarding a mold an author uses for a series. The best example would be the one you used with David Eddings. He writes one series, and then duplicates it precisely. The reason why you get the sense of deja vu is because that is exactly what is happening. I personally prefer his other universe (Elenium or something?), the one with Sparhawk and friends, but you can see how each universe has 2 sets of books, exactly the same number of books in each. I believe for the Elenium & successor it was 3 books. Template= book 1: get assigned quest and prepare party, book 2: go hunt down ultra super powerful artifact to destroy evil, book 3: destroy evil. After realizing this, I have since lost a good deal of respect for Eddings. Don't really know about Brooks, read one of his books, didn't particularly like it, haven't read another since.

I definitely prefer the authors who have no such framework, like you mentioned Piers Anthony, although he definitely should have ended his Xanth series 20 something odd books ago. I guess some writers have an overall rough idea of how the series is going to turn out, and then all they have to do is fill in the blanks. The problem is when the authors say, hmm...that made a lot of money, i think I'll do the exact same thing, instead of coming up with another good overall rough idea. Then again, some writers probably just start writing and see where it takes them.

I guess I would say the main difference between a frpg and a book, would be that the frpg is basically a choose your own adventure book. You get to more or less choose where to go, but if you go the wrong way when you aren't ready, you get the, your party has been utterly destroyed due to patheticness ending.

Maybe I just haven't played the same games or whatnot, but Wizardry 7 was the first game that actually made me take a boat and travel manually across the friggin' ocean. I personally thought that was kinda cool. It always seemed to me, for most games you just hope on a boat or raft or whatever that takes you to the other side.

Anyways, I guess I should stop rambling now, not having really said anything meaningful

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jog (36 posts) Click to EMail jog Click to send private message to jog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-07-00, 00:38 AM (Pacific)
2. "RE: FRPG vs Sci/Fi/Fantasty books/novels (long and rambling)"
That's quite interesting because that's an issue that comes into my mind very regularly. On the one hand, I'm *addicted* to this kind of literature, i.e. I devour all fantasy series that are not too bad (quite expansive, BTW), but very often there is an emptiness in me after the very end. I guess there are two main reasons for that:
First, all of these (especially American) writers ARE capable of writing in a technical sense, they assist the exspectations of the reader concerning the content and often the style of such a work - all the stuff you obviously learn in these *creative writing work shops*. But neither the authors *live* in their world nor their world *lives* - there is very often a insipid taste of *artificialness*. Thats leads me to the second reason. On the other hand, the God of Fantasy still resides on his throne, unimpressed by descendants and untouched by ravages of time - J.R.R. TOLKIEN. IMHO, there has never be (and probably will never be) an universe like that.
It is self-contained and perfect in any sense. Just think of the studies and stuff his son Christopher published after Tolkiens death. I still read the whole Tolkien every two or three years - I never in my whole life made this cruel experience of total satisfaction AND frustration when it's over (at least concerning *non-human* experiences, of course).
Before starting to molest you by never ending praises of Tolkien, the point is that he has given the reference of Fantasy Literature - and the descendants (must?) fail to invent anything that hasn't still be made better by Tolkien.
The *modern* authors often copy him in a very primitive way - after reading the first pages you know the rest (which, of course, doesn't keep me off reading).
And exactly the same (not really, of course) obsessed affection to their world in all details makes me love Ultima and Wizardry - the only cgames that let me sink into another world , cutting me totally off from the *real* world.
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DrSlop (297 posts) Click to EMail DrSlop Click to send private message to DrSlop Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-07-00, 06:50 AM (Pacific)
3. "RE: FRPG vs Sci/Fi/Fantasty books/novels (long and rambling)"
I really don't read any "fantasy" fiction. After I first read Tolkien many years ago, I was so excited that I went and picked up a bunch of other fantasy titles, and none of them worked for me. The reason, like you mention, is that they all felt very flat and formulaic. To this day, the only fantasy work that I have enjoyed was Lord of the Rings (and all the related books), and like you I return to that series every few years. Of course, it took me many years to begin to realize that the reason that Tolkien's world felt so rich and real is becuase to a large extent what he did is put together all these different elements from our history and folklore and put it together into a narrative. In other words, the world feels real becomes in many ways it is real: it has a direct connection to many Germanic and Celtic mythologies that are in fact themselves based on the histories of those peoples (whose descendeds we Anglos are). Other authors, rather than drawing from this rich tradition and bringing it to life, seem to just take Tolkiens's basic structure and plug in different characters -- they have no sense of (and probably don't even know, though I'm sure that's an unfair generalization) the history and mythology from which Tolkien's work drew its power.

One other difference I've noticed is that Tolkien wrote his books in a historical style: that is, it is told not so much as a story, but rather as a historical recounting of events. I think this is what gives his narrative much of its sense of tradition, power, and wonder. Later authors take much more of a story-telling attitude, and to me that makes the stories themselves come off as somewhat silly.

As to the relationship of the literature to games -- what I enjoy about crpgs is not the story (I'm yet to find a game with a good story), the characters (which are always flat and uninteresting to me) or any other of the "novelistic" qualities that others have pointed to. Rather, I enjoy the sense of manipulating a system with pre-given rules to best advantage, and of figuring out how best to use the rules. To me, its more like a puzzle then a story.

OE

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admin (124 posts) Click to EMail admin Click to send private message to admin Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-07-00, 08:33 AM (Pacific)
4. "Tolkien vs. Herbert"
I was wondering if either of you (Jog or DrSlop) have read the Dune series, by Frank Herbert? To me, it seems just like what you guys are talking about, with the "whole new world thing".

I feel a little left out (or behind) never having read Tolkien Here I have been satifisfied with all the other fantasy stuff and haven't read the best yet. I guess I got off on the wrong foot with Tolkien, when I got the computer game, The Hobbit, and tried playing it. It came with the book, but at that point in my life I wanted to play a game, not have to read a book to get the key plot points I need to finish a game

I just ordered $50 worth of books from Australia (by an obsolete author I can't find in the states - Martin Middleton). Maybe before I read them, I should revisit Tolkien's works. But then again, if that ruins me, what will I do with my current library

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elrond (83 posts) Click to EMail elrond Click to send private message to elrond Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-07-00, 12:29 PM (Pacific)
5. "RE: Tolkien vs. Herbert"
*gasp*choke*cough* you haven't read Tolkien? Shame on you I wasn't gonna bring the grandaddy of fantasy into this discussion, but since the other guys mentioned it...

You should drop whatever else you're doing right now and go read it. Although, as sort of a warning, the Hobbit is a very different book than the Lord of the Rings in terms of style, target audience and such. While the Hobbit is perhaps aimed towards a younger audience, the Lord of the Rings is much more serious, so if you find yourself not liking the Hobbit, don't automatically assume you won't like the Lord of the Rings.

Regarding the Dune series, it definitely has a similar sense of grandeur, but the sequels really aren't as good as the first book. More of a Science fiction book in my eyes, but definitely one of the best.

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DrSlop (297 posts) Click to EMail DrSlop Click to send private message to DrSlop Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-08-00, 10:27 AM (Pacific)
9. "RE: Tolkien vs. Herbert"
I read the first book in the Dune series, and enjoyed it very much, especially for the kind of detailed narrative where it seemed that every detail was worked in later to completely alter the plot. Thwe later books in the series just seemed too "large" to me, and I quickly lost interest.

OE

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admin (124 posts) Click to EMail admin Click to send private message to admin Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-08-00, 12:39 PM (Pacific)
10. "Dune - 1st one is the best"
Ya, I read the whole series twice - and the first book 3 or 4 times. It is really a good place to get lost for a long time I love the movie, too - it is one of my favorites, having seen it 20-30 times (most of those times coming before reading the book).
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myrddin (202 posts) Click to EMail myrddin Click to send private message to myrddin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Nov-15-00, 10:27 AM (Pacific)
25. "RE: Dune - 1st one is the best"
I just have to say my 2 cents here regarding Herbert and Fantasy novels.

I have read the entire dune series at least 5 times and the first boot 7 or 8 times (I've lost count). It is my all-time favorite series. It is INCREDIBLY awesome. It IS SF - NOT fantasy. It is, however, unless you read a lot of his other books during the time he wrote the series a bit difficult to grasp what exactly he was getting at and trying to say in this whole series due to its enormous complexity. He really is just kind of setting you up in the first book to draw you in with the old hero defeats bad guys and gets the girl kind of tale, but then does a complete paradigm shift with the rest of the series.
I could go on forever about this, but I digress...

Also, for some fantasy books that are a bit different try a novel titled Beauty, bye Sherri Tepper. It is damn good and while it has some elements of the standard fantasy, also has a lot of new and interesting elements as well as interesting ideas and concepts.

The whole overused plot/story in fantasy is why I don't read fantasy hardly at all. That's why 99% of the time I read SF. Theres an incredibly huge amount of different plots/stories among the good SF writers out there.

I guess that was more like my nickels worth, but I can afford it.
-Myrddin the Enchanter of the Isle of Avalon, Emrys of Britain

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joan212 -ur (2 posts) Click to EMail joan212%20-ur Click to send private message to joan212%20-ur Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-08-00, 02:54 AM (Pacific)
6. "RE: FRPG vs Sci/Fi/Fantasty books/novels (long and rambling)"
I'd like to propose that crpgs are not fantasy no matter what genre they appear, but by the very nature of their creation and the discovery of that pattern they are more like science fiction than
fantasy. I suspect that the hack 'em and slash 'em games are much more closely attuned to fantasy than to science fiction. They certainly feed the "I am bigger and stronger than anyone" fantasy more than the crpgs even attempt to do. Even Drakan, ( I have just started playing the demo and it is fun!) which calls itself an action game rather than an RPG, has a lot more strategy involved than the 'blow them away games' that I have tried and rejected. Tolkien is not fantasy. It is a retelling of stories that were the foundation for the religion of people for generations. (One persons myths are another persons sacred writings) Can you imagine the bhagavadgita as a setting for a crpg? Awesome!
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admin (124 posts) Click to EMail admin Click to send private message to admin Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-08-00, 09:41 AM (Pacific)
7. "FPS(hooters) vs FPS(trategy) games"
Yes, I enjoyed the Drakan demo too (should pop over and write a quick review) - it reminded me a bit of Thief. Both technically FPS, but separating themselves from the "mindless hack'n'slash/shoot'em-up" games by slowing things down (a little) and requiring a bit of thinking.

One thing I found funny in your post, was the comment about one person's myths are another sacred writings. I had a class last semester that dealt a lot with myth and religion. One of the common themes was when one culture was conquered by another, the gods in the old culture became the demons in the new. In the few exceptions to this rule the gods that survived the acclimatization, were kind of demoted to myth status, from their god status.

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DrSlop (297 posts) Click to EMail DrSlop Click to send private message to DrSlop Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-08-00, 10:25 AM (Pacific)
8. "RE: FRPG vs Sci/Fi/Fantasty books/novels (long and rambling)"
Not sure I understand your post. Are you suggesting that fantasy can only involve the "bigger stronger" scenario whereas sci-fi involves what? Certainly Tolkien is fantasy -- he's almost so by definition, since to a large degree it is his work that has come to be used as the current definition of what fantasy is. And its not exactly true that he is simply retelling old myths/religious texts, except in the sense that all art has its roots in mythology, and that to some extent mythology has already "used up" all of the stories available, and its up to others to siimply find variations on those. Otherwise, Tolkien certainly uses a lot of elements of mythology, but he constructs a narrative and a history which is purely his own -- that is, while certainly many myths involve a great struggle between Good and Evil which ends in fiery doom (I'm simplifying, Tolkien borrows a lot more elements), there is no particular myth/religion which involves the destruction of a great ring constructed by elves which has to be destroyed by a hobbit.

It is the specific Tolkienesque elements (a pseudo-medieval world, magic, etc.) that make up the current definition of fantasy (rather than fantasy as a general category, which includes sci-fi, horror, the fantastique, and other such genres). And thus, any computer game that uses this elements is fantasy, and any that doesn't is something else. A pattern of creation and discovery is a part of EVERY genre, not just sci-fi. That's the basic structure of narrative.

OE

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admin (124 posts) Click to EMail admin Click to send private message to admin Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-08-00, 01:26 PM (Pacific)
11. "Wow, this is getting pretty involved ..."
and far from where i started

But your post reminded me of another tidbit I picked up in my Anthro class last semester: The Hero's Journey. This is a classical myth construct, not the currently available computer game of the same name. We learned about this through some guy's (Campbell maybe?) thesis/book, the main theme or point he was making is that every story ever told is the same. There is a central character, he struggles, he journeys away and returns with the knowledge/power/goodies needed to do whatever he/she needs to do. The book is called something like "The hero of 1000 faces" (and I am obviuosly oversimplifying a bit).

How this tied into our class, was this is the basic precept of a shaman in his shamanic journey, is the same. A need arises, the shaman journeys into the "other world" to acquire knowledge/power and returns to this world to use it.

We then went on to talk about stories where the hero journeys to Mount Olympus (or in some other way receives help from the Gods), Jack and the Bean stalk, Alice in Wonderland, .... and how they all fit the mold.

One that we didn't talk about, which I thought was a perfect fit, was Dune. So, in this light, fantasy and Sci-Fi can be viewed as basically the same, just told in a different time or aspect.

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DrSlop (297 posts) Click to EMail DrSlop Click to send private message to DrSlop Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-08-00, 04:22 PM (Pacific)
12. "RE: Wow, this is getting pretty involved ..."
Yeah -- one time I was sitting around with some professors, one of which was a Miltonian and the other a Shakesperean... the Shakespear guy started out with the classic claim of Shakespereans that there are basiclaly 7 stories in human history, and the miltonian jumped in and started arguing that there was only one story (basically the one you described above). But for me the discussion is somewhat short-sighted, because it is, after all in the details and the "style" of the story that the true fun of reading (or playing crpgs, for that matter) comes in, so just how many master narratives actually exist doesn't really seem to make much difference to me. But, also, if you try hard enough you can make pretty much anything fit into whatever other structure you want -- the real challenge I think is to find the differences.

OE

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joan212 (37 posts) Click to EMail joan212 Click to send private message to joan212 Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-09-00, 04:13 AM (Pacific)
14. "RE: Wow, this is getting pretty involved ..."
In this second post you have brought us back to the original question of the difference between crpgs and fantasy novels. I brought in the rather extraneous topic of "action games" which play up to the desire of human beings to be bigger stronger, more beautiful {have you noticed that the characters are always 'babes'(non gendered term) reflecting madison avenue hype of idealized men and women?}
So to return to crpgs vs fantasy books. I agree with you that reducing the stories to seven plots or one plot is rather uninteresting, in fact I tend to think of it as an academic exercise (nyah nyah i can get fewer plots than you can)I think the fun of literature-- and I would like to offer crpgs as a form of literature, a new form akin to plays-- is getting into someone else's world view. The degree to which you can do this depends on your own world view, your knowledge of the elements of the other person's world view, the skill with which this view is presented, the medium that is used, and many other factors which given a list and a few days I could probably boil down to new and not new. The fun lies in the complexity of story and the individuals response to it (which if I understood you correctly is what you are saying).
Sacred writings of a culture can be viewed as the foundation of their religious practices, their guide for understanding the world they experience For others, within or without that culture, these same writings can be a foundation for litarary exploration, taking elements and building something new. So one persons reality becomes another person's speculative fiction which becomes another person's fantasy. I think that the lines are blurred which makes it difficult to make firm distinctions. Reductionism doesn't work here (if in fact it ever works at all). My opinion is that the difference between crpgs and fantasy books is one of degree not of kind and the fact that they use different media to transmit the story. Does this work for you? or is it my fantasy? joan
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admin (124 posts) Click to EMail admin Click to send private message to admin Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-09-00, 07:30 PM (Pacific)
16. "A couple points"
:have you noticed that the characters are always 'babes'(non gendered term) reflecting madison avenue hype of idealized men and women?
Which genetic engineering lab was that on Madison Ave :? Tomb Raider (and Drakan) make Barbie's measurements look almost attainable

And as to the reason why (the stereo-typoed 'babe') is used, I think it has to do with the difference in medium, as you point out. In literature, there is more you can do, more "quality time" you spend getting to know (and love, or loathe) the characters. So, the can be more realistic, more rugged, not so slim, less than perfect.
When we switch to visual mode (i.e. a CRPG), there is no time to form our opinion, we just see the artists representation of a character - and (right or wrong) most of us judge, right there.

p.s. I saw I mispelled "stereo-typed", but I thought it was too funny to correct

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jog (36 posts) Click to EMail jog Click to send private message to jog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-10-00, 07:41 AM (Pacific)
18. "RE: Wow, this is getting pretty involved ..."
Two notes on your posts.
Concerning your statement that Tolkien is NOT fantasy: you're inevitably wrong though you're naturally right! What I mean is that the decisive point isn't the essence of any thing but the manifestation we make or consider it. Viewing the profession and life of Tolkien, your assessment is definitely right but the denomination of Tolkien as *fantasy* follows an anthropological constant we can not overcome. Born totally open, i.e. lacking (almost) any innate genetic tools to structure the world (like animals), we find the world as a chaos of too many stimuli - a permant blast for all senses. So by replacing *nature* by *culture* - habituation as the method to develope - we learn to form a meaningful environment as a need of surviving. To make you sure of yourself and the world you have to differ - in and out, important and unimportant, me and you and the like. In other words, we seem to follow a compulsive need and desire to catalogue, schematize and classify literally every *thing* we perceive. TOLKIEN IS FANTASY !

2. Is the difference between crpgs and books one of degree or kind?
I'm not quite sure about that (no *phrase*!). Given the facts that each medium obeys its own laws, has its own axioms, conditions and demands and therefore tends to transform any alien, at first glance I would consider it a different kind. Think of filming of books; in my experience nine out of ten filmings are disappointing if you are not willing or capable of accepting a movie as a work of (its own) art. You loved the poetic language of the book, the tangled network of relationships, the stirring political condemnation - and find it cut off in the movie. Instead, it's a totally different story - and it MUST be. Form follows function (?), pictures have other demands than letters. So it seems to me that any content is not only transformed but transcended.
But that shouldn't be my last word, we should discuss it here furthermore - if we like to.

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myrddin (202 posts) Click to EMail myrddin Click to send private message to myrddin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Nov-15-00, 10:34 AM (Pacific)
26. "RE: Wow, this is getting pretty involved ..."
I just have to say here, as I did in my earlier post that if you read the entire Dune series, and truly understand it, it is NOT the same old journey story you are talking about. It is in fact - the opposite. The first book is very much the journey story, but that first book is just to draw you in and get you hooked. The rest of the series (as i mentioned in my earlier post) is a complete paradigm shift from that concept and he is actually trying to make a point about the very subject of the Hero/Journey tale as well as others.

To oversimplify to the extreme, Herbert is actually trying to say that this kind of mythology in our culture (which, for some reason is deeply rooted in our cultural psyche)is bad for us and is not needed. This can be pointed out in his Tleilaxu theorem, which states "Every civilzation must contend with an unconscious force, which can block, betray, or countermand almost any conscience intention of the collective."

-Myrddin the Enchanter of Avalon, Emrys of Britan

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admin (124 posts) Click to EMail admin Click to send private message to admin Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-08-00, 10:11 PM (Pacific)
13. "As if I didn't have enough going on ..."
My wife is always looking for gift ideas for me (what do you get the guy who has everything ), so given our current topic, I told he "next time you want to get me something, how about Lord of the Rings?" She ways, we already have it! I thought it was one big book for some reason, not a trilogy. But sure enough, a minute o rtwo later she plops down The Fellowship of the Ring - just what I needed
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elrond (83 posts) Click to EMail elrond Click to send private message to elrond Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-09-00, 08:26 AM (Pacific)
15. "RE: As if I didn't have enough going on ..."
Well, if you like it enough, you can have her buy you one of the one big book versions. To my knowledge there are 2 of them, or at least two nice ones. One is leather bound in red, and the other one has colored illustrations in it.
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jog (36 posts) Click to EMail jog Click to send private message to jog Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-10-00, 05:56 AM (Pacific)
17. "RE: As if I didn't have enough going on ..."
Here in Germany it's even worse. I - as a honest and truthful lunatic - own four different editions ( plus an English one ): paperback, cased, leather and a new one (cased) in a new (and better) translation.
Don*t ask who needs it.
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apsen (91 posts) Click to EMail apsen Click to send private message to apsen Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-19-00, 11:04 AM (Pacific)
19. "RE: As if I didn't have enough going on ..."
About translations:

In exUSSR we have the joke something like:

You meet four hobbits and ask them:
Who are you?

-I'm Baggins
-I'm Torbins
-I'm Zlotkins
-I'm Sumkins

- How come there are four of you?

- Uh... We are just from different translations.

(sorry not good at telling jokes moreover translating
them

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Llevram (5022 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-20-00, 06:57 AM (Pacific)
20. "Same problem in the US"
I just got back from vacation in Hawaii, where nearly every corner store sells key chains with your name - both in English and *a* Hawaiian translation.

Nearly every store had a different Rick and/or Richard translation

Tools for your Wizardry(r) toolkit

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L'Montes (29 posts) Click to EMail L%27Montes Click to send private message to L%27Montes Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-14-00, 03:41 AM (Pacific)
21. "RE: FRPG vs Sci/Fi/Fantasty books/novels (long and rambling)"
I couldn't resist a reply here.

I've boasted to friends before that after reading any two books by an author. Reading two pages of that person's work without being told...I can give you the name. This definitely plays into those template sort of theories. Eddings, Brooks, Card, and Weis & Hickman are all pathetically easy to pick out after reading a few. All authors have a different style as far as how their characters interact.

I think you're wrong about Anthony though, everyone of his books has an underlying focus on human relations (cough-cough *sex*cough). Don't get me wrong...I think alot of his books have interesting plotlines, but you can't go three pages without some male character ogling some female character generating a very familar (as far as his books go anyway) line of thought.

Also, since you mentioned them, I think it odd you didn't give them a special note. Weis & Hickman. While, by no means by very favorite authors, they're are very skilled at creating detailed little universes. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like their work was created to be an RPG. Dragonlance/ DarkSword/ Deathgate/ all almost scream class system, stats..and what-not.

Other than Tolkien (who's body of work is somewhat lacking). I'd personally recommend George R.R. Martin...who's series starting with "A Game of Thrones" I thought was very good. Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series has it's legions of fans as well. (note that neither of those series are "finished", though Wheel of Time is on book 8). All of Jordan's material is for the most part untravelled, created for his purposes, which is refreshing after so many books that use the usual gamut of dwarf/elf/dragon.

I've already typed too damn much, but I'd like to comment on the topic I guess. One can't go on this without commenting on your basic PnP RPGs....which predate even ye olde Proving Grounds. The argument that a game designer always deals with in my mind, is, do I want give the player more choices? or more story? The choices route leans towards PnP-RPGs...where you can pretty much do anything you want (kill the nice lady, help the nice lady, steal from the nice lady) with a good DM/GM. Whereas, the story route of course leans more towards a book (we would hope...obviously very few game designers stack up favorably against even the not-so-good published authors of the genre). So...if it's a "role-playing"-game.....choices should be the rule right? Unfortunately, while PnP games are only limited in size by the imagination and free-time of the DM, C-RPGs are limited both by the size of one's hard drive, and the amount of time said designer has to blow on the creation of a game. Every choice you may give a player is that much more programming, providing for a player that plays more evilly, neutrally, or goody-goody . Wizardry is an enduring RPG because it provided us with so many choices (let's kill the drunk munk!...), both in plot and character generation (a party of naked elves..woohoo!!). Given that...it still had a pretty cohesive story, but not as cohesive as some others (take FinalFantasy8...which I loathe to even call a RPG...no choice in character generation, no real choices ..yet if not a better story than W7's, it at least is more substantial, with the characters taking a more active part.)

Ideally you get alot of choices, a very good story, and alot of chances to interact with the story/environment. There will be mooks in W8 for instance....will it matter if you have full mook party? It should I would think, but will Brenda&co feel like implementing such? It would also matter I would think, if when talking to a thief...your thief is the one negotiating... rather than say...oh..I don't know....a priest?

I've typed too much, congrats on finishing this post if you did

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Llevram (5022 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-14-00, 07:13 AM (Pacific)
22. "Weis & Hickman"
The Rose of the Prophet series is one of my all-time favorites, though I seem to be in the minority there Every review I read of it (after having read the series 2-3 times) seemed to say "it was crap".

But I have to agree with you, they do build their own universe very well. A lot of humor in this series as well, especially between the male djiin and the females (djiini and the one angel - Asrial). Pukah, what a great character.

I have always wanted to base a CRPG on this series, just lack a few things to do it though (time, money, ...)

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L'Montes (29 posts) Click to EMail L%27Montes Click to send private message to L%27Montes Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-14-00, 12:57 PM (Pacific)
24. "Doh.."
I forgot about the Rose of the Prophet...and Weis's solo effort.. that Star of the Guardians bit...


Now that you mention it though, The Rose of The Prophet series would make a really easy conversion to some Populous/Actraiser sort of game... I recall some game where you could play angels and demons...but the name escapes me..

For the record, I like the series

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Lord Gram (259 posts) Click to EMail Lord%20Gram Click to send private message to Lord%20Gram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-14-00, 10:45 AM (Pacific)
23. "Weis & Hickman on DragonLance"
Well, the DragonLance books are among my favorite books (but not my absolute favorite, that goes to Tolkien!) I found it interesting how Weis and Hickman wrote these books....at least this is the story I heard, but I don't remember where from....have to look again (so **DON'T** take this as fact!)

One of the two had decided to set up a D&D game, which they would run with there friends as a group thing. Well, the books all came off of this game, but the only books which detail the game are the Chronicals (Dragons of xxxx) series.

Anyway, just an interesting tidbit I had in this little head. Thought I'd share it.

Lord Gram the Light

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