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"real violence vs virtual violence"

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joan212 (37 posts) Click to EMail joan212 Click to send private message to joan212 Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-15-00, 05:53 AM (Pacific)
"real violence vs virtual violence"
Sparked by Cog's comments
CRPG's--
Do they provide a alternative to inappropriate violence or do they encourage it? Afterall violence is considered the appropriate response to some situations by much of the world.
Do they promote acceptance of appropriate violence for those who believe violence is sometimes necessary?

keywords that spring to mind Greek theatre, Columbine, Wrestling, Dance, NYPD Blue, RoboCop, Harrison Ford, Hercules and Xena, Rap, Corporal Punishment, Society of Friends (Quakers),NRA, Be all that you can be...Join the Army, ethnic cleansing, the UN, Pacifism, the images whirl round in my head until it is hard to get a clear focus on where to stand. What kind of balance to pursue? What role do CRPG's fulfil? Joan
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Llevram (5022 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-15-00, 08:56 AM (Pacific)
1. "RE: real violence vs virtual violence"
Harrison Ford? What's he got to do with this? is he some sort of activist?

Anyway, you mentioned (the PC term - which could spark a whole separate thread) "ethnic cleansing". This concept (though maybe not the term) has been around a lot longer than anything virtual. So has violence in general.

Having been raised on "falling anvils and explosives" (i.e. Roadrunner, Coyote, Bugs, Daffy, ) and even "Big Time Wrastlin'" (who would have thought it would become the WWF, NWO, EIEIO, ...) I've still managed not to kill anbybody (yet ). So is it now that the virtual violence is more realistic?

I don't think so, I think the real problem is in the family (theirs, not the populace as a whole). Everytime you here about a "Columbine", the focus always seems to be on the kids and how bad they are. What about the parents that are raising (or more correctly are not raising) these killers?

If your child does something, you as a parent are responsible. But that's the other big problem: (lack of) responsibility. There just seems to be a shortage of it (and common sense) when someone can sue McDonalds, after spilling hot coffee on themselves, because the coffee wasn't clearly labeled as HOT. What, you were confused as to whether the coffee was warm, hot or that new-fangled iced coffee?

But, I digress ... CRPGs to me are no different than any other outlet you use to "escape". I'd rather stick my head in the sand sometimes and not think about all the problems in the world, but I have a little one to hand this world over to. If you play a CPRG (or more likely a FPS, like Doom, QUake, ...) and go kill someone, blaming it on the game and get away with it, we've all got problems.

1. You obviously can't accept the responsibility of your actions, so you blame the game - it made me do it. Funny, the other millioins of people that played it didn't get that message ... did you get a special version? Maybe the problem is not the game, ... it's you.

(funny quote from some comedian - I think Steven Wright - "why is it no one ever hears voices that say stuff like 'go mow your neighbors lawn'?)

2. If we as jurors buy your story and find the game responsible, we are just encouraging others to do the same (and are little better than you).
If we as the public buy this crap and spend our time worrying about how much violence is too much (in a game, on TV, in a PG-PG13-R movie), I think we missed the boat.

Let's focus on the problem, not the scapegoat. The problem(s) being lack of accountability, responsibility, values, morals, ethics, ...

Coming full circle, to PC (being "politically correct" - one of the biggest oxymorons of all time, right behind "Military Intelligence"), when did it become wrong wish someone "Merry Christmas"? Why is it we can't have a "Christmas Party" without getting sued? It has to be a "Winter Celebration" or "Holiday party". If I wish you "Merry Christmas" and you choose not to observe that holiday, for religious or whatever reasons, and you take offense to that ... I think the problem is you (not that I am non-PC compliant). Unless of course I knoiw it bnothers you and I keep doing it, then I am just an a$$.

So, if I start my own religion that doesn't celebrate mornings (which I have often thought of doing), and you tell me "good morning", how long do you think it would take me to find a lawyer to take up my case?

Ugh, Lawyers, another problem ... but that takes us back to ethics, responsibility, ... my head seems to be swimming in the same whirlpool w/Joan

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Lady Adrexia (153 posts) Click to EMail Lady%20Adrexia Click to send private message to Lady%20Adrexia Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-15-00, 05:43 PM (Pacific)
2. "RE: real violence vs virtual violence"
>>>>Harrison Ford? What's he got to do with this? is he some sort of activist?<<<<

No, but he is VERY cute. Well, at least to this 30ish woman he is. LOL

I know, I know I went off topic, but you mentioned one of my honeys. hehehe


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rbrown (900 posts) Click to EMail rbrown Click to send private message to rbrown Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-21-00, 01:13 PM (Pacific)
3. "Don't insult the voices in my head"
"(funny quote from some comedian - I think Steven Wright - "why is it no one ever hears voices that say stuff like 'go mow your neighbors lawn'?)"

Every time I see the neighbor across the street mowing his lawn one handed, using the other to lean on his cane, The Voice forces me to run over there and finish it for him. As long as The Voice sticks to socially acceptable orders, I will never get my 15 minutes of fame.

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Llevram (5022 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-22-00, 09:13 PM (Pacific)
4. "And yet do we need to promote violence?"
This topic reminded me of an (internal) issue I had, when putting together WizEdit. I had contracted out the character portraits and tried to distance my self from the artist (having no artistic inclination myself, I didn't want to get in the way and mess things up). Luckily, Lee showed me how wrong I was and kept me involved.

At one point, when he was working on the Thief character, I got a copy of it and was a bit concerned. It showed a Thief caught "red handed", backed against, with a spear being held towards his face ... very near his (remaining) eye.

I really liked the piece and the overall concept/feel, but the spear at the eye thing bothered me. I felt it would be irresponsible of me if I did not at least discuss it with him. I know most everyone buying WizEdit would be of a "responsible" age, yet still I wanted it toned down a little.

The result (pulling the spear tip back just a tad), and Lee agreed, was a better looking piece ... less threatening, but still with the same "feel".

Before:

After:

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joan212 (37 posts) Click to EMail joan212 Click to send private message to joan212 Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-23-00, 04:10 AM (Pacific)
5. "RE: And yet do we need to promote violence?"
I think the change you made in the picture underlies where one of your limits is (and mine too) I can think of situations where I see no other solution but violence, even killing. If some one comes after me with a knife with intent to kill me or my kids, and I have a gun, that person is history. Sadism however is a totally different thing. I cannot think of any justification for it. This character is a thief, not a mass murderer. "Hah, you no good thief, I will blind you. Be afraid, grovel, that will please me." That is sadism. It is the motive of the holder of the spear that is critical, at least to my view. Joan
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analander (145 posts) Click to EMail analander Click to send private message to analander Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-23-00, 05:36 AM (Pacific)
6. "RE: real violence vs virtual violence"
>I don't think so, I think
>the real problem is in
>the family (theirs, not the
>populace as a whole). Everytime
>you here about a "Columbine",
>the focus always seems to
>be on the kids and
>how bad they are.
>What about the parents that
>are raising (or more correctly
>are not raising) these killers?

...

>1. You obviously can't accept the
>responsibility of your actions, so
>you blame the game -
>it made me do it.
> Funny, the other millioins
>of people that played it
>didn't get that message ...
>did you get a special
>version? Maybe the problem
>is not the game, ...
>it's you.

...

>Let's focus on the problem, not
>the scapegoat. The problem(s)
>being lack of accountability, responsibility,
>values, morals, ethics, ...


Well said! My sentiments here are best expressed at the end of the Starcraft credits, where there’s a nice little notice that says something like “no pixels were harmed during the production of this game.” Whether it’s an evangelist spewing furor over some perceived Satanism in Dungeons & Dragons, or a fretful parent’s misguided repression of anything that celebrates human sexuality (as most arguments for censorship invariably boil down to a “what about the children” lament), I find all such positions laughable and try to retain a 100% pro-freedom/anti-fascism posture when it comes to freedom of speech (certain obligations withstanding - yelling “fire” in a safe crowded theater is the standard example, plus slander, or any other misrepresentation of the truth, and I would also draw the line at revealing national defense secrets to the highest bidder). I therefore accept responsibility for my actions (while any restriction of children’s access to materials should be the responsibility of the parent or legal guardian), leaving game designers free to produce whatever they think I might be interested in buying.

- John

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Spawn_Tutor (19 posts) Click to EMail Spawn_Tutor Click to send private message to Spawn_Tutor Click to check IP address of the poster
Jul-26-00, 11:08 PM (Pacific)
7. "Real Violence, that is"
Real violence, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I think there is one site in which you can see true violence. I STRICKLY suggest that you must not enter this site if you do not have a strong heart. When we entered at site, some of us just laughed at it, some felt sick after entering this site, and some felt sorry for these people ( you will know why).
Oh, before I forget, the site is
http://www.shownomercy.com
Hope that none of you knew this site before. Just don't blame me if you do not sleep tight after entering this site. Again, I STRONGLY recommend that these is not for people who do not have the heart to take this sick site. Happy surfing!!!
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joan212 (37 posts) Click to EMail joan212 Click to send private message to joan212 Click to check IP address of the poster
Jul-27-00, 07:44 PM (Pacific)
8. "RE: Real Violence, that is"
I think I will pass on that site. I have had enough exposure starting with the pictures in Life magazine after WWII when the American soldiers entered the concentration camps, reading translations of medical "research", with photos, of twins, children, in the camps; photos and descriptions of lynchings in the south; and more recently Matthew Shepherd.
These images, the revulsion and shock I felt then, and the grief I feel now knowing that fear and ignorance and a kind of moral indifference can lead to that kind of behavior, lie always in the back of my mind and echo again whenever I see headlines, or watch plays like Vagina Monologues.
Sometimes I will read articles or books or go to a play to remind myself..kind of a "Lest we forget"...but in order to avoid going into useless depression I limit these reminders. I have yet to see Boys Don't Cry. I skip the headlines about war in Europe and Africa and the Far East and the atrocities that accompany them.
I remind myself that there are millions of people who abhor this kind of violence. I can see both sides on capital punishment and on abortion and on war itself. I cannot see another side to sadism. Accepting one's agressive instincts and releasing them in games, knowing that one is a game and war is not, is, I believe, a healthy way of dealing with aggression.
And in regards to this site, I am sure that the things that are there are something that most people would never do, but violence of the worst kind is also found in words "sharper than swords" For most it is easy to avoid lynching and raping and beating people to death. It is harder to restrain the nasty crack, the gossip, the kidding which only partly conceals jealousy or fear beneath it. I am sure that every one of us can remember something that someone we liked or trusted said to us, something that hurt us, and that we never forgot. These are the little everyday cruelties that we inflict on others also. They are the normal kinds of behaviors that only saints are free of (not that I know anything about saints...but my understanding is that they are beyond this).
So I would say that when you, or if you, go to this site, or see a movie or read a book, or have a bitter experience, remember that you have littered your own path with sharp little pebbles, on which other people walk in bare feet. Decry those atrocities as we all should but remember to watch what you cast off around you. And when you feel hostile, play wizardry, which transmutes anger to challenge and challenge to strategy. Joan

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Llevram (5022 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jul-27-00, 08:44 PM (Pacific)
9. "Thanks for the pick-me-up :)"
Profound words ... made me think of raising my 3 year old son and what just a harsh or disapproving tone in my voice can do to the look on his face

But what can you do? Me, I can only nicely say "no" about 100 times before I gotta say "this ain't workin". And I have to say, when I was raised, the quota was much less than 100 and the next step was much more sever than a harsh voice.

So, I guess slowly but surely, our branch of the tree is evolving towards (hopefully) something better.

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jersey (196 posts) Click to EMail jersey Click to send private message to jersey Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jul-28-00, 05:46 AM (Pacific)
10. "RE: Thanks for the pick-me-up :)"
>So, I guess slowly but surely,
>our branch of the tree
>is evolving towards (hopefully) something
>better.


With Joan and you and other men and women with consideration and empathy and thoughtfulness, I am sure you are right. Today is already a better day. Thank you both.

Melissa

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