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"Mage, am I missing something?"

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Dale LaRoy Splitstone (Guest) (13 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-04-05, 11:26 AM (Pacific)
"Mage, am I missing something?"
I have always tended to favor mages in RPGs, but in Wizardry 8 the mage seems to be a relative whimp. I have played several different parties with both alchemist and mage up to about 12th level, and the alchemist always seems to dominate over time. The mage starts out kicking arse in the fire realm, but by level 9 the air realm of the alchemist dominates over the fire realm of the mage, and even favoring the mage by giving him all the spell books usable by a mage, the alchemist passes the mage even in the fire realm by level 12. I am to the point where I think it is best to simply use a hybrid if it seems I need to take advantage of available Wizardry books.

Dale LaRoy Splitstone

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otter (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-04-05, 01:59 PM (Pacific)
1. "I'm Missing the Same Thing."
Yah, the only thing i've found Mages really useful for is the first few levels of a Samurai. That way you get the extra points in the Realms when you start, and a few spells early in the game.
One of my favorite imported characters was a Lizzie Mage who i turned into a Sam with powercast.
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Dale LaRoy Splitstone (Guest) (13 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-04-05, 08:48 PM (Pacific)
2. "RE: I'm Missing the Same Thing."
I used mage that way at first, but now I'm not even sure that's worth the cost. I have been playing the demo while waiting on my replacements for unreadable W8 disks, and find that simply sparring with the crabs for a day or two can ramp the realms quite well.

I find the condition inducing spells best for pumping skill points while keeping the crabs alive with Heal Wounds, but tend more towards going for a backfire to aid in warrior skills development than trying to induce the conditions in the monsters, at least with whimpy monsters. Why use extra Heal Wounds spells to keep the monsters alive when the warriors can simply do less damage per swing when nauseated, itching, etc.?

If I wait to get the spells naturally as a Samurai, and don't pump many points into the realms, I can get backfires with L1 castings to better pump up combat skills. At least that's the theory.

Dale LaRoy Splitstone

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Random Passerby (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-12-05, 12:35 PM (Pacific)
3. "RE: Mage, am I missing something?"
What are your casters' relative stats? If your mage has low speed, it's possible that your alchemist and other party members keep killing everything before the mage has a chance to cast, which would lead to the mage getting less practice and falling behind skillwise. If you're putting in a lot of "practice time" to pump up skills and your alchemist has way more piety than the mage, they'll be getting a little edge in skill increases, too.

Also, how are you distributing skill points at level up? The mage has a much broader range of offensive spells to pick from, and if you try to put points in all of them equally the more specialized alchemist is going to pull ahead.

Any problems you're experiencing are probably not due to innate differences between mages and alchemists in general; the alchemist doesn't really have much built-in edge in terms of realm skills (they're likely to beat mages out in the Earth realm, since alchemists get a head start and mages are probably putting skill points into other realms that are more important to them; if you use Heal Wounds lots and lots they might be able to build up higher Divine skill but for me Enchanted Blade and Magic Missiles tend to see more use).

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Dale LaRoy Splitstone (Guest) (13 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-05, 00:16 AM (Pacific)
4. "RE: Mage, am I missing something?"
>What are your casters' relative stats?
>If your mage has low
>speed, it's possible that your
>alchemist and other party members
>keep killing everything before the
>mage has a chance to
>cast, which would lead to
>the mage getting less practice
>and falling behind skillwise.

This is definitely not the problem, my Mage beats just about every other spellcaster to the punch. Besides, if the opponents are wimpy enough to be killed that quickly, I generally use them as sparring partners to get more practice, casting Heal Wounds on them to keep them alive as long as possible..

> If
>you're putting in a lot
>of "practice time" to pump
>up skills and your alchemist
>has way more piety than
>the mage, they'll be getting
>a little edge in skill
>increases, too.

This could very well be a factor.

>Also, how are you distributing skill
>points at level up? The
>mage has a much broader
>range of offensive spells to
>pick from, and if you
>try to put points in
>all of them equally the
>more specialized alchemist is going
>to pull ahead.

I generally avoid putting any points in magic skills beyond the three to get each realm and the book of magic started. I would rather add skill points to magic with practice and add the level up skill points to weapons, communication, etc.

>Any problems you're experiencing are probably
>not due to innate differences
>between mages and alchemists in
>general; the alchemist doesn't really
>have much built-in edge in
>terms of realm skills (they're
>likely to beat mages out
>in the Earth realm, since
>alchemists get a head start
>and mages are probably putting
>skill points into other realms
>that are more important to
>them; if you use Heal
>Wounds lots and lots they
>might be able to build
>up higher Divine skill but
>for me Enchanted Blade and
>Magic Missiles tend to see
>more use).

This might go a long ways towards explaining the difference. In combat against weak opponents I completely deplete the alchemist's Divine realm, generally actually using more spell points than are initially available because a few regenerate during the extended combat enabled by casting Heal Wounds on the opponents. If I need healing for the party, there are always potions if the Divine realm is depleted. By contrast, Enchanted Blade gets cast only once, and then only when the opponents are strong, and I rarely use Magic Missiles. If I can get into position to avoid getting surrounded, I try to let my warriors take care of the attackers, saving at least half of the spellpoints in case of back to back encounters. If I get surrounded, Magic Missiles is of limited use, so spells like Acid Bomb, Fireball, Fire Bomb, Firestorm, Ring of Fire, Noxious Fumes, Toxic Cloud, and Razor Cloak are preferable for direct damage.

Dale LaRoy Splitstone

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Random Passerby (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-15-05, 09:18 AM (Pacific)
5. "RE: Mage, am I missing something?"
> If I can get into position to avoid getting surrounded, I try to let my warriors take care of the attackers, saving at least half of the spellpoints in case of back to back encounters.

Well, that alone explains a lot (although not so much for Fire and Air realms, where the alchemist and mage still have very similar spell lists until you get to levels up in the teens). The mage is all about damage, damage, damage; so if you're not constantly pelting enemies with damage spells, you'd probably be better off taking an alchemist, samurai, or bishop. It does just depend on your style of play, although one other comment:

> By contrast, Enchanted Blade gets cast only once, and then only when the opponents are strong, and I rarely use Magic Missiles.

Don't underestimate the Missiles. It's not as though your mage has anything else to spend those divine spell points on (at least for the next 10 levels or so). If you're trying to conserve magic points in the mage's stronger offensive realms, you'll generally do more damage (assuming multiple opponents) and get more substantive practice firing off missiles than you will with a staff or sling. By not exercising the mage's divine skill, you're missing out on having higher-powered summon and banish spells later on.

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XenXheng (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-01-05, 10:22 PM (Pacific)
6. "RE: Mage, am I missing something?"
One guy's opinion:

http://www.geocities.com/grieversnr/mage.html

In short, Mages deal damage of every type, which allows you to pick a spell that works off the enemy's resistances (or lack thereof). They offer excellent crowd control on groups of enemies, while your Fighters are better used to take on the single targets.

Standby Mage crowd control spells include:

=Fire=
Fireball
Nuclear Blast

=Water=
Iceball
Freeze All
Blizzard

=Air=
Noxious Fumes
Asphyxiation

=Earth=
Whipping Rocks

=Divine=
Magic Missiles

Every spell group except Mental has a group striking spell, where Mental has the single-target Concussion spell only.

Mages peak early to midgame, and Alchemists peak in the endgame, essentially!

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