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"Planescape: Torment (very long)"

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DrSlop (297 posts) Click to EMail DrSlop Click to send private message to DrSlop Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-20-00, 09:19 AM (Pacific)
"Planescape: Torment (very long)"
Well, I heard so many good things about this game that I decided I should try it... I was, what shall I say, rather underwhelmed.

The story involves your character, The Nameless One, searching Sigil and some (very limited) areas in other planes in order to discover why he just can't seem to die for good... When I first read through the concept, I thought it had a lot of potential -- the game seems to be built around making a game that addresses a lot of things that people hate about crpgs: first, since you are immortal, there's never any reason to save and reload -- if you die, you just come back to life in a point close to where you died. Second, rather than being commited to one class a-la classical Dungeons and Dragons, you can change your class any time you want, assuming that you have someone in your party who can train you in the other class. And, fourth, you can almost always avoid combat in favor in "talking," and the game is more story based than most games.

But, as soon as I started playing, a lot of the fun went out of it. First of all, the interface was very unwieldy. Any time you want to take an aciton you have to right click to bring up an annoying circular menu, and then click on tiny buttons to choose what your action is. You can hot-key most anything, which made things easier, but still somewhat distracting. Second, and I've talked about this before so I won't dwell on it, I think 3rd person view is a big mistake in crpgs. I know that Rick would argue that it makes combat more "realistic," but for me its at the cost of making the game world far less realistic. It makes the game feel like a strategy game, rather than actually bringing the player into the world. This "distance" between the character and the player really takes out a lot of the role-playing.

The big claim was that this was a "story-based" crpg, rather than just hack and slash -- but the trouble is that the story is not told visually but through endless pages of text. At times it really felt more like an interactive novel than a computer game -- I think that presenting a crpg story through text really takes away from a lot of the dynamic power of the computer game, which is bascially a visual medium. Conversation is also just a whole bunch of dialogue trees, and it really ended up being little more than hunting through the various trees for information or the XP that was embedded in certain "correct" responses. I hate conversation trees -- they never end up having the option that matches the way I want to play the character, and so I always feel like i've been forced to follow a path, rather than having control over the character.

Another huge problem for me was the scope of the game -- it was tiny. The entire game takes place in one rather small city (sigiL) and then a few jaunts to some other planes, which were represented usually by only one or two screens of actual play area. There was no epic feel, everything was claustrophobic and rather limited in scope. I just ended up not caring about the world, becaue I felt like i never really got to see much of it.

The alignment system also really pissed me off. Rather than choosing your alignment, the game would automatically change your alignment based on certain actions. To me, this just doesn't work in a role playing game -- how is the computer to know the "reason" for my actions... maybe me being nice is really just a facade I put up to trick people whereas deep down I'm this really evil guy... This turns out to be not so much a system of alignment as of morality, and there's no place for that in entertainment. It also takes away my freedom to role-play by imposing on my character the designers (rather limiting) view of right and wrong.

The NPCs that could joing your party were all pretty interesting, but I would have much preffered to have an entire party of my own making. There were also a very limited number of NPCs that could join you. I ended up playing much of the game solo.

Finally, and perhaps most minor but it really annoyed me, all the pseudo-philosophy really pissed me off. Your character would end up entering these silly "philosophical" coversations with everyone he met -- and the designers/writers clearly had only a very superficial understaning of the debates they were staging. I'm not saying that crpgs need to have deep philosophical underpinning, only that if you do try to throw in some of that into your game -- get it right. My character would never misquote Hegel like I was forced to during one of the conversation trees... Let me role-play my own philosophical understanding, I guarantee i can do it better than the dime store philosophy that was forced down my throat.

All in all, a good concept that was hampered by a lot of bad design decisions that served more to take control away from the player, and thus to make the game itself feel very flat and lack any kind of involvement.

OE

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Llevram (5022 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-20-00, 01:02 PM (Pacific)
1. "Two questions on review vs. expectations/knowledge?"
As I read your review, it reminded me of how I first felt when I played Star Trails (the second one). Having recently finished Wiz 7, I was hoping for a similar experience. Seeing the words RPG and Sir-tech, I was sure it was gonna be great, if not better than Wiz 7.

I was sorely disappointed - partially because of the access time (playing of a 3x CD-Rom and a 486/66 computer w/8 MB of RAM.

A year or two later, in a fit of desparation, I picked it up again and gave it another try (with an adequate machine). I was really rather pleased with it and played it all the way through. It was still no "Wizardry", but still had some nice features and a good story - just not the replayability (for me).

So, do you think you would feel different about the game, if you had been expecting it to be a flop?

The other thing that I see tainting more and more of many of my experiences, is knowledge. I used to work in the glass industry and whenever some thief, in some movie would cut a cirle out of a glass door, pop it out, reach through and open the door ... oooh, that would get me! You just can't do that, for a number of reasons (that aren't pertinent to this discussion).

Conversely, when you say they misquote Hegel, I doubt it would matter to me, since I don't know who he (or she) is.

I think that is something that hindered my (potential) enjoyment of The Lord of the Rings ... having just finished my Anthro class last year that dealt a lot with shamanic/hero's journey, I tended to analyze the story, picking out the "shamanic tendencies", like when the party ascends the great tree to meet with Celeborn and Galadriel (sp?). I wasn't enjoying the story so much based on it's own merits, but comparing it to how it fit into other "molds".

Just like a magic "trick" loses its intrigue, once you know how it is done, I think sometimes our overdeveloped brains hinder our enjoyment of some of the rest of life.

(side note) One of my favorite sayings is "we - as humans - only use 10% of our brains". How accurate can this be, coming from someone who only uses 10% of their brain

BTW, I share your distaste for the conversation trees, they should be more free form, but that is more difficult to program and accommodate.

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DrSlop (297 posts) Click to EMail DrSlop Click to send private message to DrSlop Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-20-00, 06:22 PM (Pacific)
2. "RE: Two questions on review vs. expectations/knowledge?"
It is, of course, impossible for me to say to what degree my feelings about the game were biased -- all I can say is that it certainly wasn't consciuosly biased (ie., I have no agenda against the makers of the game -- and in fact want as many rpgs to be good as possible, since then I enjoy playing them) and that I tried my most to take the game on its own terms: I played the game all the way through and, of course, I had much more invested in enjoying it then in not enjoying it, so I always tried to find the good points in the game.

About the knowledge aspect -- I agree that to someone who is not familiar with the roots of the philosophy, the "misquotes" probably wouldn't matter... and I certainly don't have a litmus test for games that demands a certain knowledge of phenomenology, etc. My only point was that it was obvious that the designers went out of their way to make direct reference to certain thinkers, and that in that case they should get it right. To some degree this is like a historian who looks at all historical films and complains that they don't represent the history properly -- but, again, this certainly wasn't what killed the game for me, just something I thought I'd mention.

What's more, all the things I listed put together don't exactly get at what I didn't like about the game... for example, I love Fallout, which is a game which also shares many of the things I disliked in Torment... its just that Fallout for some reason made these things not matter as much -- by sheer force of its humor, kitch, and visual style of storytelling it overcame its problems to become a great experience. Torment just felt like it was made by first writing out a list of "things I want in the perfect crpg" and then just directly implementing it, without tying it together with any kind of unifying aspect that will make it feel like a complete game.

OE

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Llevram (5022 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-20-00, 07:48 PM (Pacific)
3. "I was hoping for a reversal on your ruling :-)"
I too had heard a lot of good about this game (and a little not so good). But, I was hoping to get it (this summer) and play it, but hearing your review is giving me pause. So, knowing what you do now, what would you say the game is/was worth? Meaning, if you had played a demo of the game and were now thinking of buying it ... what would you pay?

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DrSlop (297 posts) Click to EMail DrSlop Click to send private message to DrSlop Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-21-00, 09:46 AM (Pacific)
4. "RE: I was hoping for a reversal on your ruling :-)"
First, I'll say that almost everyone else I know really really liked this game, and that its reception in the newsgroups has been tremendously positive -- that's the reason I got it... So, take my review as just one man's opinion (but I do still stand by everything I said). For my money, I would say that it may be a worthy pick-up in the discount bin -- for say 10-15$... I just didn't really feel that i got much out of the game... I felt that it was a strained story-line that was forced upon me rather than letting me find my own way through the game-world. This is especially true in the second half of the game, where it becomes draconianly linear, literally steering you from one point to the next. Still, it has some colorful characters, and is to some degree a new approach to computer rpgs.

If you have the patience to read pages and pages of mediocarly written text then maybe you would value the game higher than me. I know that you enjoy fantasy literature (which I consider mediocre literature at best -- but that's just my own bias and far too many years spent in school) so you may have a more positive reaction to this than I did. I kept wanting to play the game, and kept being blocked by endless text and annoyingly endless dialogue trees which had less to do with role-playing then with XP hunting -- if you feel the same way as I do about that, then I would say its probably a bargain bin pick-up.

OE

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Llevram (5022 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-21-00, 11:28 AM (Pacific)
5. "I guess Thief II will be next for me"
As I said, I was hoping to get Planescape as my next game. But it seems to be holding it's value (hasn't dropped in price on Chips & Bits yet), but Thief II is coming out (maybe this week) and is listed at under $30.

I really enjoyed Thief: The Dark Project, but have apprehensions about Thief II. I'm afraid it will be too much the same as the original, or if they are taking it up a notch. But by the time summer gets here, they both might be down in the $10-15 range

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