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"Vanilla Party Questions"

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Apparatchik (14 posts) Click to EMail Apparatchik Click to send private message to Apparatchik Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-19-08, 06:49 AM (Pacific)
"Vanilla Party Questions"
Hello Good People,

I have some questions about non-class changing parties. Thank you in advance for your help.

1) What is the best class combination in your view? I typically use a combination of valkyrie/samurai/ninja in the front rank and bishops and alchemists in the rear. This gives me a good fighting arm and 3 of the 4 spell books. I usually dispense with Psionic spells. They don't seem to work on too many people. Still, I would like to know what others think.

2) Given that you will be working with a vanilla party, do you think its okay to use less than 6 characters? I have been tempted to try 4. Sometimes 6 characters gets confusing for me, especially sorting out inventories.

Thanks again.

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-20-08, 00:33 AM (Pacific)
1. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
I don't skip the class-changing option, ever, so can't really suggest the best combo, however, I would go a much smaller party (even just 2 characters) if I were to 'vanilla' my game. You need the levels if you don't get the multi-classes, to max skills and get the good spells while they're still useful.

I would personally go with an all lord/ninja/monk/samurai combo. Selecting the 2 that has the spell category I want to try out.

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Apparatchik (14 posts) Click to EMail Apparatchik Click to send private message to Apparatchik Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-20-08, 06:27 AM (Pacific)
2. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
Thank you Sphynx. You suggest a lord as a possiblity. Don't you think a Valkyrie is better, given the lower experience requirements?

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-20-08, 11:03 PM (Pacific)
3. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-08 AT 11:39 PM (Pacific)

No, absolutely not. The experience to get to level 12 is negligable, and once you're at level 12 (I think it's level 12 anyhows), regardless of class it's the same price to go up a level (400k I think). Experience is the one reason not to worry about it. ;)

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-20-08, 11:39 PM (Pacific)
4. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
BTW, reasons to be a Lord not a Valkyrie

1D7+7HP or 1D5+4HP at Char Gen
1D5+4 or 1D5+5 HP at level-up.

Better Resistences

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Apparatchik (14 posts) Click to EMail Apparatchik Click to send private message to Apparatchik Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-21-08, 07:33 AM (Pacific)
5. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
That does seem quite a difference. I still like the Valkyrie due to the advanced polearm skill. Still I will be reconsidering the Lord on the basis of your information. When I create a party, it is with the goal of a good combined arms team. One fighter(a fighter/lord/valkyrie) has to be in front to hold the enemy and take hits. One or two hide and strike from behind (ninja/monk). Lastly there is always one or two rearward spell casters as support.

I also want to experiment with the Bard more. If I recall a Bard could hide in battle and cast spells from that hidden position. Would there be a chance of detection of the Bard from his spell throwing or playing instrument?

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-21-08, 10:56 PM (Pacific)
6. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-08 AT 10:57 PM (Pacific)

That's one of the reasons I multi-class. Of my characters, my 4 warrior classes have Kirijitsu and Ninjitsu allowing them Lethal Strikes and the ability to Hide. The other 2 have Ninjitsu, allowing my entire party of 6 (Lord, Samurai, Ninja, Bard, Bishop and Ranger) to hide and cast spells from the shadows (Great for entering New City without using the password since that Trooper can only paralyze what he can see ).

And the Musical Instrument is just like a spell, you can do it during combat while hidden without detection.

However, Bards get their instruments so late in the game that with the exception of the Poet's Lute, almost none of them are worth it. I would only recommend a Bard if you do like I've done and 'modify' the game. I put the instruments in more useful locations so that my Bard actually has a reason to exist. Same with my Ranger, I reduced the weight of all the arrows down to minimums, and made sure they appear in the hundreds when they do appear (10d25 arrows) so my Ranger actually has a reason to be a Ranger.

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Apparatchik (14 posts) Click to EMail Apparatchik Click to send private message to Apparatchik Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Feb-22-08, 07:26 AM (Pacific)
7. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
I remember about instruments being rare. Still I might try a Bard. I just wanted some other imput. I have nothing against class changing. I just find that it leaves me more confused as to what each character can do. Thanks again Sphynx. You have really helped me.
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supersonic (4 posts) Click to EMail supersonic Click to send private message to supersonic Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-01-08, 08:34 PM (Pacific)
8. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
I've always used vanilla parties, I guess its just personal preference. I have just taken a party from Bane into Wiz Gold, which was the following:

Lizardman Fighter
Felpurr Samurai
Faerie Ninja
Dwarven Valkyrie
Elven Mage
Dwarven Valkyrie

Reasons I kept pretty simple: wanted a fast levelling character as in the fighter who could up the map skill quickly (I guess this may not be a problem to the experienced Gold player!), a Samurai to take through the Muramasa, arguably one of the best one handed weapons in the game, the Ninja to use the cane if I got it (which I did!), the mage for obvious reasons and two valkries; I wanted good weapons from the back (Maenads lance, Raven's Bill) plus good healing. It worked very well in both games, the only problem I really had was with Jenn Ra and his 4 ranks of attendants. Finished up at about level 30, with most characters having 20 in strength, vitality, dex, and speed.

Made quite a few observations, the first being that the fighter didn't level as quickly as I remembered in Bane - I almost wish I had taken another Valkyrie or a Lord (I do like the fighter weapons, and play a very weapon oriented game). The Valkyries did shine from the back ranks, with some useful hits with the lances and halberds, and lots of healing as planned, plus hold monsters. Later on the big spells were handy too. Did have a conundrum with Weaponry though: I got the CofC late on, and at that time had already got the Light Sword, Excalibur and Zatoichi Bo, (and a Diamond Eyes!) so didn't know what the best combo to play was. Of course had the Muramasa Blade, and a Pandoras wand too. The CofC wasnt quite the weapon I expected, so my Ninja was relegated to 4th with a valyrie going up front, and became a spellcaster/hider.

I guess this combo would work well for the novice player, but not complete newbie, or maybe a journeyman who would have taken advantages of other knowledges learned during playing Gold before. I have played Bane multiple times though, so was quite glad my tactics worked! Thinking on, I feel that the best 'vanilla' team may involve as many as 4 or 5 valkyries! So I guess it comes down to that - how quick you play, what you know, your preferances and what you want your end team to be.

Sorry for rambling first post!

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-03-08, 07:54 AM (Pacific)
9. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
Hey Supersonic, welcome to the forums.

The problem with alot of the ideas is that, all characters advance at the same level really. If you'r enot multi-classing, you'll have someone make it to 12th level first of course, but before he/she reaches level 13, they're ALL level 12. Levelling is the one reason to never pick a class.

Another problem is that ALL the good items that you might pick a class for, don't come until the end-age of the game. Either on the Island, or in Brom's cave. So picking a class due to an item just means you 'finish' good, but don't play well til the end.

As for Valkyrie vs Lord, seriously, the only weapon that a Valk can use that a Lord can't is Maenad's Lance, which you can only get when you're ready to battle Gorrors, as it's a Gorror treasure. Every other way, the Lord is better.

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Scary (16 posts) Click to EMail Scary Click to send private message to Scary Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-04-08, 02:36 AM (Pacific)
10. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
>Another problem is that ALL the good items that you might
>pick a class for, don't come until the end-age of
>the game. Either on the Island, or in Brom's
>cave. So picking a class due to an item
>just means you 'finish' good, but don't play well til the end.

Actually, that's not quite true. If you re-read Supersonic's post, you'll note that he was playing a party imported from Bane. If he imported wisely, he could have one "super" device for each character, including:
1. Muramasa Blade
2. The Avenger
3. Maenad's Lance
4. Fang
If he was very lucky, he might find a Z-bo, Excalibur or Estoc de Olivia. If not, he could fill in the extra slots with a displacer cloak, some ebony armour, or an elven bow. (If planning to take a party all the way from Bane to W8, imagine what you could do with TWO elves wielding elven bows -- something that, without hacking or modding, is only possible by getting one from Bane and one from CODS.)

Thus, for imports, it makes a LOT of sense to plan your characters around certain items: someone to use an elven bow or bows, if you are going all the way to W8; a valkyrie to use the Lance; an F/V/L to use the Avenger; a samurai to use Muramasa; etc. These parties "play well" right from the start. You really must pity the low-level New City mobs when characters open up on them with uber weapons (and folks in the back ranks, with nothing better to do, can open up on them with loads of rocket stix).

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supersonic (4 posts) Click to EMail supersonic Click to send private message to supersonic Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-05-08, 12:43 PM (Pacific)
11. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
Yes,the party was specifically created in Bane to be imported through with items. I took through, without any editing:

Blade Cuisinart
Muramasa Blade
Maenads Lance
Raven's Bill

plus the Diamond Ring and other assorted armour and parts. It did work really well, and as I like fighting tactics having 4x4 hits quickly was useful!

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Scary (16 posts) Click to EMail Scary Click to send private message to Scary Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-06-08, 00:47 AM (Pacific)
12. "No Avenger?"
Blade Cuisinart instead of the Avenger??
What were you thinking? The Avenger is set (in Bane), and better than Cuisinart in every regard.
Now, you'll have to go back to Bane and start all over, again. ;)
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supersonic (4 posts) Click to EMail supersonic Click to send private message to supersonic Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Mar-06-08, 00:50 AM (Pacific)
13. "RE: No Avenger?"
Prefer the double damage, it tends to hit harder with melee 2(4d4+2) compared th 3d8+4. Or max 36 vs 28. Dont have a problem with missing or no penetration with high chars.
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Ravashack (6 posts) Click to EMail Ravashack Click to send private message to Ravashack Click to check IP address of the poster
Jun-22-08, 06:11 PM (Pacific)
14. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
>BTW, reasons to be a Lord
>not a Valkyrie
>
>1D7+7HP or 1D5+4HP at Char Gen
>
>1D5+4 or 1D5+5 HP at level-up.
>
>
>Better Resistances

Mmmm, didn't know that about the Lord. I used a Lord from start to finish in a vanilla game and it was torture compared to a Valkyrie. I guess I need to update my FAQ some more. Granted, the last update was 2001 and I haven't installed CODS on this (comparatively) new computer...

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manofwar (0 posts) Click to EMail manofwar Click to send private message to manofwar Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-02-08, 01:51 AM (Pacific)
15. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
Well, believe me. The game is much more easier to play with one character. You start like a FAERIE - BARD and change immediately to MAGE and then as fast as possible to NINJA. By this time you should have the nuclear blast spell. So put all your bonus points when rolling the character to vitality in order to get as many HP as possible. Then put all your bonus points to thaumathurgy when going up a level.
Reason: BARD can HIDE, so after you change to MAGE you will always try to hide and then spell. Works perfectly simple. Ninja with powerful mage spells, alchemy, kirijutsu and low AC is pretty much unbeatable after just few hours of playing.

The only problem playing with one character is that you have small inventory space and you must throw away everything in order to carry all the maps.

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Oct-03-08, 11:51 PM (Pacific)
16. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
2 things....

You only need 1 map. Use a notebook and pen if you want the other maps for clues.

Start as a Mage with stats for a Ninja, not a bard. Before you move 1 square, change into a Ninja (Mage is only to get high-regen). Then later change to Samurai once Thaumaturgy is maxxed to learn Nuke.

Still, the game is much easier with 6 characters than 1. ;)

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Sir Blue (16 posts) Click to EMail Sir%20Blue Click to send private message to Sir%20Blue Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Jan-07-12, 09:57 AM (Pacific)
17. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
For all the way from 6 to 8:

Whiska Samurai
Human Monk
Faerie Ninja
Human Valkyrie
Elven Ranger
Human Monk

- can use all the nice items from the isle of the dead
- all 4 magic schools represented
- Valkyrie, Ranger and Monk can use excellent extended/long range weapons

- No mages or psionics (tend to get killed to often)
- No bishops (without class changing you won't get anywhere)
- No lord (valkyrie is better back rank fighter)
- No fighters, thiefs or priest (what for?)
- No bard (music is not that useful except early on)
- No alchemist (is replaced by ranger, ninjutsu is invaluable)

BTW: Monks can use the *Light Shield*. Oh yes.

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kolidra (7 posts) Click to EMail kolidra Click to send private message to kolidra Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-19-12, 12:04 PM (Pacific)
18. "RE: Vanilla Party Questions"
2 faerie munks (with cane corpuses each)
1 faerie munk with light sword
1 felpur samurai with zatoichi bo
1 dwarf valkrie with maenads lance
1 dracon bard with staff of doom
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