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"MultiClassing Perfection - MinMaxxing Character Creation"

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Nov-12-06, 08:52 AM (Pacific)
"MultiClassing Perfection - MinMaxxing Character Creation"
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-07 AT 07:00 AM (Pacific)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-06 AT 08:53 AM (Pacific)

This is more a tutorial than anything, should anyone come along that is interested in the 'best' way to create the most powerful party possible. Although debated a bit, in truth, the most powerful party possible is done via large-scale multi-classing. The 600,000 XP level difference from 1 level to the next, past level 17, is the key. You want to do all your multiclassing prior to reaching your first 600,000 XP, which means you're only 1 level behind what you'd be if you never multi-classed at all.

There are 6 combinations that are 'perfect' for multiclassing.

The easiest is a FAERIE BARD/THIEF/MAGE. A faerie has by default the stats needed to be a BARD/THIEF class changer. Their Dex would remain at 12 if they stuck to just BARD/THIEF. Adding MAGE in will learn your spells alot faster of course, to be a MAGE you only need +2 to Intelligence, and to get back to being a BARD/THIEF, you just need +2 to Dexterity. Easy class switching. For 23 points (24 if female) you can start as a Mage with +2 Dex, 18 Piety and 15 Vitality for the fastest mana regen possible. Great 'Bard' since a Bard kinda is a Thief/Mage, so nice theme.

My favorite is the HOBBIT LORD/VALKYRIE. Her weakness though, is a lack of Ninjitsu and Kirujitsu. So, the best way to create this character is to start her as a NINJA for her first few levels. For 25 points you can have the stats needed to be a NINJA and to immediately multi-class into a LORD. As a LORD/VALKYRIE you'll be able to switch classes fast and often and have more Priest spells than Priests of your level, and maintain a good 'theme' since both are similar classes.

Another easy one is the RAWULF NINJA/SAMURAI. Since they can both use the Katana/Wakazashi, it's a great class switch to start a Samurai as, and is also very thematic. 21 points will start you with the stats needed to be able to change classes immediately. The hard decision on this one is whether to specialize in Thaumaturgy or Alchemy since the magic fields are very different. Personally, I do Thaumaturgy, since Ninja's only learn spells at level 5, and I class-change at level 5. Going Thaum lets me learn all the spells much sooner.

Next up is an ELVEN RANGER/VALKYRIE. Another highly thematic combination since a Valkyrie is a bit of a Ranger/Lord mix. Best Ranger possible due to the Elven Bow in-game. And cheap to make, at only 18 points to start with decent stats for a Ninja in order to get the Kirijitsu skill at character creation to stack with their natural bonus with a bow. Personally I stick purely with Alchemical spells here, since Alchemy gets to learn all the important healing spells of a Theologist. That lets you cap out the AIR magic rather quicky.

The 2nd Easiest is the ELVEN MAGE/PRIEST. With starting 10's in Intelligence and Piety, switching classes is easy. I always end this character as a Bishop (which is really hard to do if, like me, you always switch classes right at level 5, usually requiring that any Ankh I find is going to boost Intelligence). The hardest part of this character is you want to start him as a Mage for the mana-regen, but have no hiding skills. For 25 points you can start him with a Piety of 18, Vitality of 15, and the stats to switch to a Bard for a few levels to learn Ninjitsu with. Very very important if you want a stealth party. Don't forget to raise his swimming to 10. At the low points per level for physical skills, it's hard to remember to raise Swimming in time with the need for Ninjitsu and Oratory. ;)

Lastly, I now do a RAWULF NINJA/MONK with studies in Theosophy in order to have the final magic class available to me. He ends as a Monk of course, and never touches a weapon, but does get a better armour save than the Ninja thanks to Enchanted Robes. He's a slight pain in the behindy to get class-switched by 5th level every time (requiring a few repeat-combats), but he also tends to have the highest kill ratio.

Anyhows, those are the best options. The key is to always change classes at a specific level under level 8. I always change levels at level 5, but that requires alot of re-battles at times. Level 6 is better for the 'ease' factor, but you get fewer class switches in under the 600,000 XP mark. However, usually, by the time I enter the Gorn Castle, all 6 of my characters are dropping either Nuclear Blasts, Deadly Air, Mind Flay or Word of Death on the enemy. Being able to go the entire game with 6 full-scale damaging spells like that up your sleeve makes the game alot easier.

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WizFan (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-14-06, 07:41 AM (Pacific)
1. "RE: MultiClassing Perfection - MinMaxxing Character Creation"
i'm not following you, why wouldnt the best way to pursue the 'ultimate' party be for every single character to gain 100 in every skill and then ultimate end up at some really high level (already with every spell) and eventually have 20 in every core stat (if solo, then also with all the personal skills)?
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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-14-06, 07:50 AM (Pacific)
2. "MultiClassing Perfection "
I've got an easier way - WizEdit

Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

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WizFan (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 01:26 PM (Pacific)
8. "RE: MultiClassing Perfection "
Hey Llevram,

Is there a way to get WizEdit free? I want to try starting a faerie ninja solo assuming I had gotten 26 bonus starting points and try to get at least 1 point in all schools of magic before doing my chain bard/theif prof switch to increase hp, sta, mp, and skill points.

thanks!

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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 03:04 PM (Pacific)
9. "Not yet ..."
I keep thinking about making it freeware and let people donate when they feel obliged ... then I get another order

This past Dec 1st, WizEdit officaly turned 8 years old ... so it is getting to be time to give it away ...

But, until then, I have always offered one-time edits for free .. just send me your file and what you want done to it.

Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-15-06, 08:38 AM (Pacific)
3. "RE: MultiClassing Perfection - MinMaxxing Character Creation"
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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-15-06, 08:39 AM (Pacific)
4. "Err.... Without Cheating. o.O"
Duh.
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WizFan (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-15-06, 03:14 PM (Pacific)
5. "RE: Err.... Without Cheating. o.O"
I sorta see your point about the F/N F/Lord thing, but it seems to me that once you've switched professions enough, and have every skill maxed at 100 and have every spell learned, wouldn't it be better to just either be a Ninja or a Lord (and prolly Ninja). I mean there comes a point where you want to be able to cast spells higher than level 1, and I'm assuming that if you switched professions enough to max everything, your HP,MP, and STA are already gonna be high.

What I did on my newest solo F/N try, was take a solo F/N I made with a 25 bonus, level up twice, and then went samurai, leveled up twice, and then went bard, and continued to switch between thief and bard incestently (every 2 to 5 levels depending on exp earned) and I haven't even left new city yet. I fought every static fight in the starter dungeon, opened every chest, left, go the journey map kit, and now i'm in the process of opening every door I can in new city and doing those static fights. Currently I'm in old city, and have opened prolly 5-10 rooms randomly in the city, and I already have 120 HP, every mage spell that costs 10 mana or more, plus a lot of others (though not all yet). I have Hands Feet/Dagger/Ninjutsu/Skulldugery/Oratory/Thaumatergy/Alchemy at level 100. And once I learn every Mage spell, I plan on switching to Alchemist and fighting stuff for more exp so that I can level higher and pursue all the Alchemy/Theology/Theosophy spells. Then for kicks if I want diplomacy, I'll make sure to do a class with it before finally getting back to ninja and just leveling until at least all my stats are 20 (unless I decide some day that I want more HP/MP/STA).

Tell me what you think though b/c I don't know why your strategy would be better than mine. Starting as an F/N allows for Ninjustsu and Hands/Feet which allow you to hide and basically beat the snot out of most anything at low levels.

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 00:49 AM (Pacific)
6. "RE: Err.... Without Cheating. o.O"
As I said, you always stop multi-classing when your TotalXP is still under 600,000. By the time I finish New City and Old City, and work my way to the Gorn Castle, I've stopped switching. I don't think I ever switch classes once I've stepped inside the Gorn Castle. That's roughly where my 600,000 Total XP is achieved, and my Ninjas remain Ninjas.
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WizFan (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 01:19 PM (Pacific)
7. "RE: Err.... Without Cheating. o.O"
why? it's so easy to make up 600k exp, that's like 4-5 higher lvl encounters. if you make the ultimate party, you should be able to take on much harder encounters and therefore gain higher exp after the 600k+ mark than you would if you did stop switching.
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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-17-06, 02:16 AM (Pacific)
16. "RE: Err.... Without Cheating. o.O"
Because of Levels. As I stated on another thread, the best way to resist spells and thus avoid damage (especially when fighting things like the Horrors) is to be a higher level. 600,000 is the point where you lose only 1 level (since 600,000 is the increment that levels go up at the high levels). So, when another party might be level 41, my party with all skills maxxed and all spells learned are at level 40. Basically I spend 1 level to have everything I need maxxed. And believe me, when you're ready to take on the Horrors, the monsters and higher XPs aren't coming anymore. Random encounters don't really have the higher XP that Battle Encounters have.

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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 03:04 PM (Pacific)
10. "Where was that in the requirements?"

Tools for Wizardry(r) 7
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WizFan (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 03:15 PM (Pacific)
11. "RE: Where was that in the requirements?"
Is it just me or is the full version of WizEdit not there for download? I didn't see it available anywhere.
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WizFan (Guest) (0 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 03:17 PM (Pacific)
12. "RE: Where was that in the requirements?"
Correction, there is no free version available?
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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 04:44 PM (Pacific)
13. "Correct ... not yet ..."
I will probably do that within the next month or so ... like I said, email me your saved game and I can edit it for you.

Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

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Wizfan (0 posts) Click to EMail Wizfan Click to send private message to Wizfan Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 06:56 PM (Pacific)
14. "RE: Correct ... not yet ..."
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-06 AT 06:58 PM (Pacific)

ah ok, well I just want to start a new game, if that's not too much trouble. my thinking was to get a F/N w/ a 22 bonus:

F +22 (N) -> (L) -> (M) -> (B)
-- -- --- --- --- -- --- -- --- --
str 5 +7 12 12 12 12 (+1) 13 13 (-7) 5
int 11 +1 10 12 (-1) 11 9 11 8 11 10
pie 6 +6 10 12 12 12 (+1) 13 13 (-7) 6
vit 6 +6 12 12 12 12 (-6) 6 6
dex 10 +2 12 12 (-2) 10 9 10 10 (+2) 12 12
spd 14 +0 12 14 14 9 14 13 14 8
per 12 +0 12 12 14 14 (-2) 12 8 12 12

+22

Ninja -> Lord (+2 stats) -> Monk (+2 stats) -> Bard -> Thief* (+14) -> **Monk (+8) -> Lord (+4) -> Ninja***

*(repeat bard/thief every 2-5 levels until all mage spells learned and all skills maxed (probably not including personal skills, except for maybe power strike).

**Monk may not be able to learn all the spells fast enough, might have to switch back down or switch to psionic. it will take a while to go from thief/bard to monk

***Ninja and lord will switch untill all spells from alch and theo learned. (end on ninja).

so yeah, a F/N with the starting stats as seen in the column. thanks

(oh bah, it ruined my formatting)

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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-16-06, 08:39 PM (Pacific)
15. "That's not quite how it works ....."
I can't control the roll of the dice on character creation, I can only tweak the stats of an existing character, in an existing game file.

So, roll up your characters, start your game, then send me your file and what you want tweaked.

Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-17-06, 02:19 AM (Pacific)
17. "RE: Correct ... not yet ..."
You really shouldn't cheat for levels. Using WizEdit for anything other than a more themed character-creation (maybe you want your Paladin to start with PlateMail) or to fix bugs (Blienmies stole your Thermal Pineapple) takes away all the fun.

BTW, don't bother with the misc spells. If you cap 2 categories, you'll get the max 999 mana per category easily by the time you hit the horrors. Either Thaum and Theol, or Thaum and Alch is best (Alch only because you can cast it Silenced, irrelevant against most monsters and scenarios). Having all the spells of all the classes just means you have a long spell list.

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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-17-06, 05:40 AM (Pacific)
18. "We've been here before ;-)"
Others would argue (and have done so) that you shouldn't multiclass, back and forth simply for the stats/spells ... after all this is role playing and why would all your characters be so schizo I'm a Ninja, no, wait, I'm a Valkyrie, no, a Lord, now I'm a Ninja again ... wait, maybe a Ranger, nope, ....

I think what WizFan wanted to do was start out a party with a FN of stats that he could have got, if he spent the time to roll a 22 bonus.

I thought that MadGod's stuff would let you set the bonus at creation, but am not sure about that ...

Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

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sphynx (14 posts) Click to EMail sphynx Click to send private message to sphynx Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-17-06, 06:06 AM (Pacific)
19. "A discussion I love. :P"
Difference being, it's not cheating to use the system. Cheating is using an external system. ;)

However, I will admit that it would be nice if there was a way to change the 'advancement' algorithyms to not need multi-classing to have decent skill levels (maybe *3 skill points....). And more importantly, changing the non-academic skills to allow anyone to learn them (ninjitsu for spell-casters for example). Ie: Make it just as nice to not multi-class. Would be even cooler if someone made that change, and enforced a level-maintanence at the same time (Like Wiz8, changing classes at level 4 leaves you at level 4, or at least at the same XP since moving from a thief to ninja and maintaining the level would be kinda off )

Ok, done with my Christmas Wishing. Back to playing.

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nomad (43 posts) Click to EMail nomad Click to send private message to nomad Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-17-06, 06:27 AM (Pacific)
20. "RE: We've been here before ;-)"
You can use Mad gods editor to change the algorithim(?) for bonus points. I am not sure of the exact result, but you get a lot of 21+ die rolls.
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Llevram (5413 posts) Click to EMail Llevram Click to send private message to Llevram Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Dec-17-06, 07:11 AM (Pacific)
21. "Algorithm ;-)"
Maybe the newer version of the foum software has a spellchequer

Tools for Wizardry(r) 7

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